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The Professor
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:12:18 PM
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My territories occupied by Germany returned to Russia; puppeting bug again happened.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Fivoin
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:14:49 PM
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That's a part of the puppeting mechanic.
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:18:34 PM
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Back in September we edited provinces that had never been occupied by Germany. I don't think that's the same thing that's happening here. But if there are any Russian provinces that are now owned by Germany, and which Germany never occupied, those should be edited back.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
The Professor
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:19:18 PM
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Its not, and we already did this edit last war remember? The last time we made this ruling we declared it was a bug.

I do not believe it to be a meaningful distinction, given that Germany and I never officially peaced out, and in fact never had peace of any kind. The will of the players trumps buggy mechanics here, and that has always been the case.

Did Germany, through any form of his button clicking send me an offer that I accepted that would have transferred ownership of those provinces? The answer is frankly never.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Gollevainen
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:25:04 PM
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If we win the war, those provinces still needs to be edited for Russia, so why not do it now, since the game mechanism is not intended to the level of sneakiness conducted in the conversion games.



Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
Mighty G
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:32:53 PM
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japan wants WP in its terms with its neighbours.

We didnt want this blayne shennaigans, it was fun whilst it lasted, just for the record african negociating team.

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Fivoin
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:33:10 PM
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No, the thing is that when you accept a puppetization offer all your lands that are occupied by any other power becomes owned by them. That's nothing strange and is how it's always worked.
The Professor
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:35:20 PM
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Fivoin wrote:
No, the thing is that when you accept a puppetization offer all your lands that are occupied by any other power becomes owned by them. That's nothing strange and is how it's always worked.


This isnt what was decided last time, ALL provinces were returned to me remember? Not just the ones you actually moved troops to. We've NEVER stuck to what the mechanics say, our house rules are specifically to get around them as to not limit player choice, its clear the only reasonable answer is to edit the provinces back to Russia, as Germany did not earn them.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Fivoin
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:37:55 PM
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The difference back then was that I had somehow gotten provinces that I never occupied. That's weird. This isn't as I occupied everything myself.
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:41:06 PM
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The Professor wrote:
Its not, and we already did this edit last war remember? The last time we made this ruling we declared it was a bug.

I do not believe it to be a meaningful distinction, given that Germany and I never officially peaced out, and in fact never had peace of any kind. The will of the players trumps buggy mechanics here, and that has always been the case.


Do you mean that the provinces would be transferred to being owned by Russia but occupied by Germany? Or both owned and occupied by Russia?

To be clear, I don't believe either of those should be the case, I'm just trying to get clarity in what Blayne is saying.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
danomite
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:41:45 PM
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Discuss it some more, but at a glance this does not appear to be the exact same situation as before, plus I never ruled on it last, it was simply agreed that the situation last time was strange, this is much less so as it is an expected outcome if you've played the game before.


It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
The Professor
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:43:02 PM
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Fivoin wrote:
The difference back then was that I had somehow gotten provinces that I never occupied. That's weird. This isn't as I occupied everything myself.


It isn't a meaningful difference, because ALL such provinces were returned, every last one.

There is no reasonable argumentation that can possibly justify Germany having those provinces as "owned" when at no point did I accept or offer Germany a peace offer; the mechanical result of Germany getting to "own" those territories egregiously breaks the common sense test.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
The Professor
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:44:01 PM
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King of Men wrote:
Do you mean that the provinces would be transferred to being owned by Russia but occupied by Germany? Or both owned and occupied by Russia?

To be clear, I don't believe either of those should be the case, I'm just trying to get clarity in what Blayne is saying.


It should be that they are owned by Russia but occupied by Germany.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
danomite
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 8:51:12 PM
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Mighty G wrote:
japan wants WP in its terms with its neighbours.
Indeed, its a shame this minor border skirmish got out of hand. We should clearly return to our prewar status of eyeing each other across the pacific... Tongue

It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
The Professor
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 9:08:14 PM
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Ill accept a compromise where this isn't counted as "resetting" the gain new cores timer.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Irsh Faq
Posted: Saturday, November 24, 2012 11:21:28 PM
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Fivoin wrote:
That's a part of the puppeting mechanic.


I did some investigating last time this came up and I'm not entirely sure. IIRC, If you ask for puppetization and someone else is occupying provinces, you can also ask for those provinces to go to that nation in the peace deal and it costs extra war score above the puppeting to do so. This would suggest that that is the way to do it and the turboannexing mechanic is a bug.

Turboannexation was patched out of Eu3, as well (back in vanilla pre-expansion days) though it was some other weird mechanic that you could get it to happen there, not through vassalization. IIRC occupying a country's provinces but not the capital, then funding rebels in the capital would cause you to turboannex all their other provinces when the rebel siege finished, if you were successful at pulling it off. Anyway they patched it out there as players would use it to bypass the warscore mechanism. I'm not aware though whether it has turned up in any other pdox games.

That said... it's hard to say. This mechanic is frankly never used in a vanilla SP campaign, let alone puppeting someone while someone else is occupying land, so it's possible that its just WAD but the sort of WAD that has never come up in a game before ours - it wouldn't surprise me if the peace mechanics were the least tested part of the code, since the alliances in vanilla are hardcoded never to use them.

So it's possible that it is indeed WAD. All I can say for sure is it's a mess! Tongue


Quote:
No, the thing is that when you accept a puppetization offer all your lands that are occupied by any other power becomes owned by them. That's nothing strange and is how it's always worked.


IIRC this is not the case. It only happens if someone other than the person who in game mechanics sends the peace offer is occupying the land.

If you had happened to be the one to send the peace to Russia, none of the German-occupied lands would have been turboannexed to Germany.

*shrug*

I'll test a bit more when I get the chance to make sure my recollections are correct, it's been a month or two.

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Fivoin
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2012 12:25:40 AM
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The mechanic is indeed WAD. Since a puppeted nation automatically gets peace with everyone they are at war with the occupied => owned mechanic is there so that you can't just screw a nation out of provinces just because the defeated nation gets puppeted by someone else.
The Professor
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2012 1:21:46 AM
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Fivoin wrote:
The mechanic is indeed WAD. Since a puppeted nation automatically gets peace with everyone they are at war with the occupied => owned mechanic is there so that you can't just screw a nation out of provinces just because the defeated nation gets puppeted by someone else.


We routinely edit our way around WAD mechanics all the time why is this one any different? Especially one as vague and obscure as this? Do we accept all mechanics as WAD? Deploying airfields en mass is WAD but we house ruled that one out because it invalidated the common sense rule.

At this point though its clear that the 'WAD' even if true, is not only counter to the common sense rule, but additionally is something as Irsh points out never comes up in SP or vanilla MP games so how can it be WAD when seemingly by definition it is something never intended to be used in that way? Clearly at most maybe for small nations at best, but this is half of russia we're talking about, in a diplomatic situation where the people who sent me the offer were immediately at war with you.

Lets look at what actually happened in the metagame:

I was at war with Parties A and B.

B decides that A is overextended enough to fight A, so they offer me peace and to go back to their alliance, which we did and at no point during this do I stop being at war with you or implicitly agree to peace you wants; the most convenient way to do this is through puppeting, but any other way could have worked but only inconveniently, such as peacing out for WP and then being offered to join the alliance; something we've done by edits before! such as when we merged your alliance together with Catalunya and California's alliance. Me losing half my country to you in some sort of de facto peace deal when we're still fighting de jure doesn't pass the smell test.

Either way your TC should be unplayably in the shitter with so many provinces, it might even improve if they're occupied, why go through all this hassle for something we've already agreed wasn't valid by the common sense rule?

Alternatively we could just retroactively agree that the puppeting never took place and to presumably did it by edit.

For instance we could roll back to the last autosave, edit myself back into the alliance and avoid the puppeting mechanic altogether and the military situation should remain the same.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Mark0628
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2012 2:15:11 AM
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no rollback!
Mighty G
Posted: Sunday, November 25, 2012 11:08:09 AM
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danomite wrote:
Indeed, its a shame this minor border skirmish got out of hand. We should clearly return to our prewar status of eyeing each other across the pacific... Tongue



Indeed, playing tit for tat on the korean pennisula is mildly entertaining, but i think alot more progess can made in peace.

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
George Orwell

The Professor
Posted: Saturday, December 01, 2012 12:47:02 AM
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So yeah Manpower in the meantime.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Mark0628
Posted: Saturday, December 01, 2012 1:17:26 AM
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Mighty G wrote:
Indeed, playing tit for tat on the korean pennisula is mildly entertaining, but i think alot more progess can made in peace.


Finish the fight!
oddman
Posted: Saturday, December 01, 2012 1:13:03 PM
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Mark0628 wrote:
Finish the fight!


No, Finnish the fight! Take it to Africa! (Get it?)

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell
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