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Vaniver
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 6:14:37 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel


Joined: 1/19/2014
Posts: 600
dragoon9105 wrote:
Personally I'd like to have some way defending against a crusade can work without being abused, I'd like to think we don't have anyone who would actively try to abuse them from what i've seen so far (Nobody has started a gold or tech farm for the moment which is a good sign). Maybe have the wording 'Successfully Defend against a Player Led Crusade" To Qualify there must be an openly attacking player and they must be in the top 3 for War Score or something like that. (This last crusade wouldn't count, as Mark openly said he was just in it for the traits, not to take Hungary)
I think it either needs to be PvE (where it only rewards offensive success) or PvP (where points flow from loser to winner, like the 'imprison another player's character' achievement). There's not really another way of checking whether the war was 'real' (Mark did have top 3 warscore in that war, didn't he?).

My suspicion is that the first is better overall; most ways of implementing the second turn them into world wars every 30 years (per religion), which seems not great. For example, every participant who lost gives a point to the winners, distributed according to war participation score, which means you only want to join a great holy war you're pretty sure your side will win. Alternatively, and I think probably better, all members of both the attacking and defending religion ante up a point at the start of the war, with the points distributed to the winner based on war participation, so there's no barrier to joining and a strong incentive to be a major participator. (We should count AI leaders and defenders as anteing if they have sufficiently high moral authority or the religion has sufficiently many provinces, so it still makes sense to join the AI Sunni Caliph's jihad for Hindu Persia (2 Sunni players + Sunni Caliph + 1 for Hindu) but not the Fraticelli Pope's Crusade for Italy (plenty of points on the Catholic side, but 0 on the Fraticelli side and so it doesn't happen, unless there's a Fraticelli player or Fraticelli has gotten large).

(This one is also interesting because it agitates against both large and small religions--if there are four Catholics and only one West African, a crusade for Mali will lead to 4v1 basically by default, making it dangerous to be small. But if there are seven Catholics against three Hellenics, then it's likely that the weaker Catholic players will be bleeding points to the stronger Catholic players, since they might not get enough participation to get their ante back, incentivizing marginal members of larger religions to bail.)

---

Before I suggest any resolution to the situation in Spain, I want to hear what Mark's opinion is. (I'll give mine on Friday if he hasn't spoken up by then.)
The Professor
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 9:46:59 PM
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Joined: 11/17/2007
Posts: 8,337
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Diplo room I was in but no longer using vanished, which means SCHEMING THAT SPANS CENTURIES IS AFOOT!?

I invite all parties to send me reassuring messages that I am not a target, and upon verification perhaps some gold can be sent your way? Smile

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
dragoon9105
Posted: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 10:08:10 PM
 Lieutenant General


Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,039
Well that or maybe someone just likes to keep a Clean house since It was moved to the Archives.

If you want a Room blayne just hit me Khan or King of Men up, We'll find one for you. Wink
Yami-Yagari
Posted: Thursday, June 15, 2017 8:06:44 AM
 Generalmajor


Joined: 1/16/2014
Posts: 1,095
The Professor wrote:
Diplo room I was in but no longer using vanished, which means SCHEMING THAT SPANS CENTURIES IS AFOOT!?

I invite all parties to send me reassuring messages that I am not a target, and upon verification perhaps some gold can be sent your way? Smile
with what gold? Last time i checked, you were 340g in debt Tongue
King of Men
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 6:16:55 AM
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I think the PvP Crusades would be either exploitable, or way too fiddly to keep track of. I'd prefer to stick with the offensive-only Crusade achievement we currently have. That said, presumably at some point the map will be mainly players and any offensive Crusade will have intelligent opposition; get yours while they're AI.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
dragoon9105
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 6:40:03 AM
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Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,039
So we having a vote for VGM? or Just going with an Appointee?
Mark0628
Posted: Friday, June 16, 2017 9:19:21 AM
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King of Men wrote:
I think the PvP Crusades would be either exploitable, or way too fiddly to keep track of. I'd prefer to stick with the offensive-only Crusade achievement we currently have. That said, presumably at some point the map will be mainly players and any offensive Crusade will have intelligent opposition; get yours while they're AI.


i was part of the first crusade that won 0.0 what do we get for winning crusades?
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 7:23:31 AM
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Mark0628 wrote:
i was part of the first crusade that won 0.0 what do we get for winning crusades?


Forgiveness for your sins! (Actually you get that even if you lose, I believe.)

Also it's an achievement. I believe Dragoon posted it in the achievements thread already.

Having seen no opposition to the suggestion, I rule that all Holy Orders will be activated by edit provided I can figure out how to do it.

Additionally I will make a restorative edit for Vaniver, as he was destroyed by AI stupidity after he crashed and we didn't rehost. I would welcome some suggestions for what the edits should be, both from Vaniver and from his current enemies.

Finally I appoint Dragoon as Vice GM, as there were no other nominations. Dragoon, I would also like to hear your opinion on what should be done about Vaniver's situation.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Mark0628
Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 9:50:01 AM
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Posts: 511
could we get a stickied thread with all the possible achievements?
Yami-Yagari
Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 10:21:53 AM
 Generalmajor


Joined: 1/16/2014
Posts: 1,095
Mark0628 wrote:
could we get a stickied thread with all the possible achievements?

We already have... its right below the saves thread...

King of Men
Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 10:33:08 AM
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Mark0628 wrote:
could we get a stickied thread with all the possible achievements?


It's in the rules thread.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
dragoon9105
Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 1:35:05 PM
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Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,039
King of Men wrote:
Forgiveness for your sins! (Actually you get that even if you lose, I believe.)

Also it's an achievement. I believe Dragoon posted it in the achievements thread already.

Having seen no opposition to the suggestion, I rule that all Holy Orders will be activated by edit provided I can figure out how to do it.

Additionally I will make a restorative edit for Vaniver, as he was destroyed by AI stupidity after he crashed and we didn't rehost. I would welcome some suggestions for what the edits should be, both from Vaniver and from his current enemies.

Finally I appoint Dragoon as Vice GM, as there were no other nominations. Dragoon, I would also like to hear your opinion on what should be done about Vaniver's situation.


Already threw my 2C in actually.

dragoon9105 wrote:


Also my 2C on what to do with the Whole Spain situation.

Reimburse Mark for his Mercenaries and end the War via savegame edit so there isn't a truce.

Have Vaniver Enforce peace on the Umayyads, since hes sitting at 99 war score ATM and I think its safe to say Van would have assaulted a holding and ended the war before the session ended if he was here.

If they want to murder each other after, power to em.
Vaniver
Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 9:41:03 PM
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Joined: 1/19/2014
Posts: 600
King of Men wrote:
Having seen no opposition to the suggestion, I rule that all Holy Orders will be activated by edit provided I can figure out how to do it.
Typically, they're created by events. It seems cleaner to either 1) edit the mod so that the events have different requirements or 2) trigger the events while loading the game up in SP, and then save the game again. (Most of them are set up to fire for the Pope, so it doesn't matter which character initiates the event.)

The relevant events (from events/soa_holy_order_events.txt, oldgods_historical_events.txt, hashshashin_order_events.txt, cm_religious_events.txt )
Bektashi Order: SoA.1209
Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre: SoA.1609
Haruriyyah: CM.4309
Hashshashin: 88000
Jomsvikings: TOG.4004 (Stettin) TOG.4009 (Wolgast) TOG.4010 (Rugen) TOG.4020 (Werle) [Only one of these should be fired, based on which county is Norse and the chief should get a shot at hosting them; I note that the requirement is actually fulfilled, so these events may have been firing already. They have a MTTH of 620 months, though.]
Lords of the Sky: SoA.2009
Order of St Addai: SoA.2809

That should be all the ones relevant for current or likely player religions. (I suspect we shouldn't turn on the ones for AI religions, which might also mean not including the Lords of the Sky.)

King of Men wrote:
Additionally I will make a restorative edit for Vaniver, as he was destroyed by AI stupidity after he crashed and we didn't rehost. I would welcome some suggestions for what the edits should be, both from Vaniver and from his current enemies.
Given that Mark hasn't weighed in that this is a war he would have prosecuted, I think unmaking it through a savegame edit is probably best. Editing it so I occupy a single additional Umayyad holding will mean I have 100% warscore on the interrupted war and can end the war when the game starts, which seems useful. Additionally, I'd refund Mark what his AI paid for mercenaries and me half of what I paid for mercenaries (since they were only hired because of the war we're memory holing, and never saw battle against another army, but I shouldn't get a full refund because I was in the seat).
dragoon9105
Posted: Saturday, June 17, 2017 11:40:20 PM
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Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,039
Don't forget the Missing Catholic Orders.

Current Played Religions are

Catholic(Calatrava/Templar/Hospitaller/Teutonic/Santiago)
Sunni (Bektashi)
Ibadi (Huriyyah)
Shia? (Hashashin)
Orthodox (Brotherhood)
Nestorian (St Addai)
Messalian (None)
Norse (Jormsvikings)
Ranger9000
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 9:13:26 AM
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Joined: 4/11/2013
Posts: 238
I think the Messalian's get St Addai as well don't they? It's just that its dependent on which one triggers the event.
dragoon9105
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 9:56:01 AM
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Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,039
Messallians need to become the new orthodoxy, then they get the Holy Order and the Nestorians lose it.
Vaniver
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 1:31:02 AM
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Joined: 1/19/2014
Posts: 600
It seems likely that we should fix the religion of all the holy order heads, and also figure out if we want to do anything about secret religions. (About 80% of the adult members of my court are secretly Germanic, which is fine except for dynasts that are about to become independent.)
Ranger9000
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 1:46:09 AM
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Joined: 4/11/2013
Posts: 238
So I'm not quite sure if this got fixed after I left, but it doesn't seem to be an issue with the save we were having. At least not my version of the save. I've powered through to 982 without a crash. Tried it again with the older save and got to 978 without a crash before I figured it was fine.
Firehound15
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:24:11 AM
 Leutnant

Joined: 1/29/2014
Posts: 135
In particular, the head of the Ibadi religious order is Orthodox, as is nearly everyone in his court.

I'm not certain why the crashing only affects about half of the players, but perhaps someone with more technical know-how can figure it out.
dragoon9105
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 3:35:22 PM
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Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,039
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/ck2-dev-diary-55-nurture-vs-nuisance.1030752/

It looks like Paradox is finally getting around to fixing the aforementioned cult issue,

Now becuase this patch also changes provinces I'll have to do some testing with the mod/save to make sure its compatible, if it is however I see no reason not to upgrade to the beta patch when it rolls around.
The Professor
Posted: Monday, June 19, 2017 10:31:03 PM
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Any leads on the crash issue? The save seems to generally work fine in SP, but semi-randomly ctd's in multiplayer.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Vaniver
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 5:24:17 AM
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Joined: 1/19/2014
Posts: 600
The Professor wrote:
Any leads on the crash issue? The save seems to generally work fine in SP, but semi-randomly ctd's in multiplayer.
1) Do we know how many people we need for it to trigger? If two is enough, that might be different in cause than six.

2) Do we want to do binary elimination on events and decisions, and see if we can narrow it down?
King of Men
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 5:39:39 AM
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I have added the following clarifications to the achievement rules:

Quote:
Conversion of a title means to convert its de-jure provinces. Achievements such as 'Conquista' and 'Reconquista' which directly oppose each other may be triggered multiple times, but only the last one counts - if a Conquista is followed by a Reconquista then the first achievement is destroyed. However this requires full achivement of the Reconquista - a single Christian count will not wipe out the achievement.


Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Vaniver
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:53:39 PM
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Joined: 1/19/2014
Posts: 600
So, everyone who crashed, could you take a look at Paradox Interactive\Crusader Kings II\logs\exceptions.log ?

Code:
######## EXCEPTION: 0xC0000005 at address: 0x00B47402: ACCESS VIOLATION  read attempt to address 0x8B500072
Version: CK2/branches/2_7_1
37283

06/18/17 12:21:10
(In my time zone, that's about 40 minutes before the end of session, which is when I remember the first crash being.)

Unfortunately, this is about as generic as errors can be; the game looked for something outside of where it was supposed to, and we don't know what caused it to look for that.
dragoon9105
Posted: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:57:44 PM
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Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,039
Can the crashes be repeated without the mod loaded? This will determine if the problem is with the save, or the Mod.

The Save 'should' be compatible without the Mod, as outside of adding the trigger modifiers/Cultural tactics and certain titles existing, everything else is controlled in the save.
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