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el_zilcho321
Posted: Saturday, July 29, 2017 5:40:22 PM
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The Professor wrote:


So with visual AARs, the example I'd put is "bad polandball*", some hastily drawn circles and some broken incoherent engrish; the player gets no sense of the game, it hard to understand, and doesn't have a lot of entertainment value.




I feel personally attacked

padre
The Professor
Posted: Sunday, July 30, 2017 2:47:07 AM
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I'm sure yours were fine.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
KhanXLT
Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 1:46:57 AM
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Posts: 2,575
As my summer draws to a close I finally have a date that I will be able to return to you all lovely fine folks. August 28th. I would love to pick up a rotw/ colonial nation slot when the time comes
dragoon9105
Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 3:32:33 AM
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Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,040
You could take up Germany again as house Diz neigh, Kom gave august 14th as our conversion date but we always tend to run over that from what I've seen.
King of Men
Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 5:40:51 AM
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Right, that's why I said "break until at least" August 14th. Smile

Anyway, yes, the dez Neigh are an option, ROTW also works.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
LordSauronOfHertfordshire
Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 5:43:44 AM
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Joined: 5/22/2017
Posts: 179
Well if we do run long I hope it's two weeks long, as the Sunday after that will be the middle of my College New Student Orientation Weekend, which would put a damper on my ability to get on my computer for four hours I'd imagine.

Why conquer when diplomacy is just so much easier.
Gollevainen
Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 12:38:30 PM
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Location: "I need zoo love!"
I also will be away in the 20th of august so I really don't mind starting Eu4 only after that

FÜR DEN SCHUTZ DER ARBEITER UND BAUERN MACHT


Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
Yami-Yagari
Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 2:56:51 PM
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Joined: 1/16/2014
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Germany isn't run by diz neigh though, its von britannia now .
Hadogei
Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 3:14:50 PM
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The Best Dynasty of them all.
KhanXLT
Posted: Thursday, August 03, 2017 4:23:29 PM
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The fact it still exists at all gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

But I imagine, unless I really like the europe layout, that I will probably go for a colonial nation.
el_zilcho321
Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 1:41:21 AM
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I wanna join too

padre
King of Men
Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 5:48:03 AM
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el_zilcho321 wrote:
I wanna join too


By all means. ROTW for you too, then? Any preferences?

Khan, if you're being literal about a colonial nation, you'll presumably have to wait some sessions for them to exist. Is that your intention, or did you mean an Asian country?

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
KhanXLT
Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 6:43:00 AM
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Posts: 2,575
I'll play an Asian with the intention to swap to first colonial nation that is created.
dragoon9105
Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 7:07:26 AM
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Its seaming increasingly likely with all our Supposed Colonizers wanting to exile themselves to the new world there wont be any Colonial Nations.
el_zilcho321
Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 4:10:53 PM
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King of Men wrote:
By all means. ROTW for you too, then? Any preferences?

Khan, if you're being literal about a colonial nation, you'll presumably have to wait some sessions for them to exist. Is that your intention, or did you mean an Asian country?


Yeah that's fine, I'll take any land based nation - not too fussed about doing navies and stuff. Idk if you've sorted rotw yet, I can't get into the save bcos I have no DLC Cry Cry

padre
LordSauronOfHertfordshire
Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 4:46:17 PM
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Posts: 179
el_zilcho321 wrote:
Yeah that's fine, I'll take any land based nation - not too fussed about doing navies and stuff. Idk if you've sorted rotw yet, I can't get into the save bcos I have no DLC Cry Cry
have you tried that trick from earlier?

Why conquer when diplomacy is just so much easier.
el_zilcho321
Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 8:29:38 PM
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LordSauronOfHertfordshire wrote:
have you tried that trick from earlier?


Looked around and can't seem to find it, what is it?

padre
dragoon9105
Posted: Friday, August 04, 2017 9:06:14 PM
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Joined: 8/25/2014
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Open the save in Notepad, Delete the DLCs you dont have from the DLC required list.
Ranger9000
Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 5:12:00 AM
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Joined: 4/11/2013
Posts: 238
dragoon9105 wrote:
Its seaming increasingly likely with all our Supposed Colonizers wanting to exile themselves to the new world there wont be any Colonial Nations.


I'm waiting to see if I even have a hope of lasting 10 seconds in Europe before I finalize the move. At the moment it's not looking too good.
Pavski
Posted: Thursday, August 17, 2017 10:00:50 PM
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Why did you guys end the ck2 phase so early? From the maps it looks like there was lots of drama going on

“Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so.”
The Professor
Posted: Thursday, August 17, 2017 11:31:26 PM
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Pavski wrote:
Why did you guys end the ck2 phase so early? From the maps it looks like there was lots of drama going on


Bad Civilization.

I think people were kinda fed up with a lot of bullshit CK2 rng screwing over whole realms and I think our 150 realmsize rule, while generally worked as intended, had some side effects that weren't well received and caused a lot of frustration due to how CK2 events worked.

I think the next time we try CK2 we keep the 150 realmsize but make it a rule that's GM enforced instead of modifier enforced, but keep an event/modifier so that the player can't go "I uh forgot/didn't notice...".

150 realmsize is good, not being able to effectively expand your dynasty to other King titles less good.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
dragoon9105
Posted: Friday, August 18, 2017 12:41:14 AM
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So now that ck2 is over I'm probably gonna make my final ck2 aar my full thoughts on how well things worked.

The short version is

150 'HARD' realm size is way to small for expanding or building a stable realm. Even as a soft realm size 150 is too small.

We need to hem Players in more and let the bad ones die and play Muslims and 'easier' nations after some time.

There still in my opinion was little reason to pvp outside of boredom.

Players leaving after losing a war/to the ai hurts way more than it should becuase of how spread out everyone was.

The Professor
Posted: Friday, August 18, 2017 2:24:27 AM
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Okay my experience is very different.

I feel 150 was a good size, in many cases is two King titles which is about enough to make up most natural realms.

The problem is that there isn't a good way, esp. with a hard limit, to expand past that to plop a brother or a nephew on another throne.

Because there's no good way without being Pagan (I should've gone Hellenic), you don't have most players expanding fast enough to actually have wars with each other.

The only PvP wars we've seen were from countries that could legit Holy War each other for regions large enough to be able to get King titles out of it, or at least a decent megaduke.





Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Ranger9000
Posted: Friday, August 18, 2017 6:21:53 AM
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Posts: 238
If I could go back, I would have gone Hellenic and likely shot for the Sicilian slot myself. Finland was fun, but between my choice in religion and the region in general I had no real hope of expanding since I didn't have the CBs (since nobody told me I could buy CBs until the 3rd session), and I didn't have the manpower since everyone around me had boosted garrisons and levies. That and the adventurer horde early on that had me constantly dumping all my money into trying to fend them off pretty much gutted any hope I had of ever getting the Baltics and Northern Finland. All in all it was a very bad religious pick for the region, though it was still quite fun to play and admittedly, I liked the sillyness of it more then actually winning.

Obviously I didn't even get close to the 150 limit, and if it hadn't been there I likely would have never escaped from KoM or Golle but I wouldn't have really minded if I had stayed a vassal mostly cause as from above, I didn't really go into this game to win, just to help craft the world to some extent and have some fun while doing it. I'd say that the 150 limit should have stayed, but making it softer probably would have helped. As Professor put it, it pretty much made expanding to put others on the throne not possible unless you wanted your realm to explode for a bit. The fears about people abusing it I think could have just been dealt with through GM force and editing if need be.

As for running into eachother, I don't think that was the issue in the east at least. I was almost constantly butting up against KoM and Golle's land from the start, I just tried to make myself friendly enough to not warrant being killed for my delicious delicious near useless land. Though maybe I would have condensed a few more spots into Germany. With the hard limit it would have probably been possible to have an east and west German player from the start (or north and south) and possibly two Frances. While I liked Finland, it was well, the corner of the world for a long time so I didn't have much reason to interact with anyone (until Shetland turned into that flashpoint with Eire)

Edit: Ontop of that Messalian was a very bad pick for the Dynastic game since it locked me out of intermarrying with near anybody important. It mixed with Seniority more or less made my realm completely immune to Hadogai's attempts and made some very entertaining characters (Into is still the most fun I've had in a while) but otherwise it did much more harm then good I think in the long run. Even the achievements I got out of it (namely that easy Heisiarchy achievement) weren't enough to really boost my score onto level with anyone else.

Edit Edit: Also I take some offense to the struggling against the AI part Tongue. The only real issues I ever had with the AI was the adventurer swarm which was caused by that bug and once I got out of it it hit everyone else. Other then that the only wars I lost was one against Golle's super duke over a territory I literally didn't care about (Borneholm) and some late game 'might as well try' attempts to holy war into Northern Russia to establish a Messalian Theocracy that never amounted to much due to the obscenely powerful AI's deeper into the steppes that came to help.
dragoon9105
Posted: Friday, August 18, 2017 6:40:17 AM
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Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,040
The Professor wrote:
Okay my experience is very different.

I feel 150 was a good size, in many cases is two King titles which is about enough to make up most natural realms.

The problem is that there isn't a good way, esp. with a hard limit, to expand past that to plop a brother or a nephew on another throne.

Because there's no good way without being Pagan (I should've gone Hellenic), you don't have most players expanding fast enough to actually have wars with each other.

The only PvP wars we've seen were from countries that could legit Holy War each other for regions large enough to be able to get King titles out of it, or at least a decent megaduke.





People did have the means there just wasn't incentive for the Cost. You could buy Claims for example, Nobody used this feature intensively.

Then there was the matter of you could fill your realm size out without coming into conflict with anyone. I filled out my Realm size and still had room leftover to create 3 Dynasty Vassals uplift You, Yami and Golle to King Status and then go crusading, as well as spit out some vassals within my realm so I could maintain my borders.

The modifier and transparency regarding score was also a fairly major issue. The primary means most people know how to take land is through straight brutal and effective warfare. Nobody played the dynasty game besides Hadogei, and early on Mark and Khan. Nobody besides them. That's how Catholics and Christians are supposed to expand. Though Yes, being Pagan at the start is an immense advantage, and more of a problem and player skill with the start than with the game.


Ranger9000 wrote:
If I could go back, I would have gone Hellenic and likely shot for the Sicilian slot myself. Finland was fun, but between my choice in religion and the region in general I had no real hope of expanding since I didn't have the CBs (since nobody told me I could buy CBs until the 3rd session), and I didn't have the manpower since everyone around me had boosted garrisons and levies. That and the adventurer horde early on that had me constantly dumping all my money into trying to fend them off pretty much gutted any hope I had of ever getting the Baltics and Northern Finland. All in all it was a very bad religious pick for the region, though it was still quite fun to play and admittedly, I liked the sillyness of it more then actually winning.

Obviously I didn't even get close to the 150 limit, and if it hadn't been there I likely would have never escaped from KoM or Golle but I wouldn't have really minded if I had stayed a vassal mostly cause as from above, I didn't really go into this game to win, just to help craft the world to some extent and have some fun while doing it. I'd say that the 150 limit should have stayed, but making it softer probably would have helped. As Professor put it, it pretty much made expanding to put others on the throne not possible unless you wanted your realm to explode for a bit. The fears about people abusing it I think could have just been dealt with through GM force and editing if need be.

As for running into eachother, I don't think that was the issue in the east at least. I was almost constantly butting up against KoM and Golle's land from the start, I just tried to make myself friendly enough to not warrant being killed for my delicious delicious near useless land. Though maybe I would have condensed a few more spots into Germany. With the hard limit it would have probably been possible to have an east and west German player from the start (or north and south) and possibly two Frances. While I liked Finland, it was well, the corner of the world for a long time so I didn't have much reason to interact with anyone (until Shetland turned into that flashpoint with Eire)

Edit: Ontop of that Messalian was a very bad pick for the Dynastic game since it locked me out of intermarrying with near anybody important. It mixed with Seniority more or less made my realm completely immune to Hadogai's attempts and made some very entertaining characters (Into is still the most fun I've had in a while) but otherwise it did much more harm then good I think in the long run. Even the achievements I got out of it (namely that easy Heisiarchy achievement) weren't enough to really boost my score onto level with anyone else.

Edit Edit: Also I take some offense to the struggling against the AI part Tongue. The only real issues I ever had with the AI was the adventurer swarm which was caused by that bug and once I got out of it it hit everyone else. Other then that the only wars I lost was one against Golle's super duke over a territory I literally didn't care about (Borneholm) and some late game 'might as well try' attempts to holy war into Northern Russia to establish a Messalian Theocracy that never amounted to much due to the obscenely powerful AI's deeper into the steppes that came to help.



Honestly your issue was mostly picking christian at the start for that region. Its very easy to expand with Subjugation, and from there you could have bought a claim somewhere in Nestorian land, converted and then converted to Heresy if you wanted messalianism, like how I did Nestorianism.

Blaynes issue as well, was not playing Pagan, and not learning how expand in a warring states via buying claims. Which seems to be an issue with alot of people, despite the mod being called Song of the Dead Buy Claims. I literally fused the two mods together.




Also my full thoughts on the issues and how to improve Ck2 are up in my AAR. Read at your own risk, The TLDR version is.

Lack of Players and the Size limits created a lack of Tension due to how spread out everyone was. Now this isn't relevant to people who never intended to Pvp or you know play a Multiplayer game, but it is for the future.

Basically, we were working with a player distribution that assumed this.

What we actually have is this

Note the Giant Red Outlines and space between the starts. This is why ultimately there was no PVP or any real conflict at all. People would fill out their size limits without ever needing to come into conflict with another player.
Combine this with a lack of incentive from the current achievements, and general lack of transparency on what score is used for, everyone gets their size limits, there's no tension and so everyone just wants to convert.

Nevermind that some players are struggling to keep even meager little 150 Realm size Kingdoms smaller than france stable.

For the future to sort of Force players to actually fight each other a bit and play the dynasty game shoving people into a distribution more like this would work better.


Getting people to spread their dynasties was a novel idea and all, but ultimately with the way people play, they simply wont do it unless there's real solid incentive, I feel after seeing this. It was a good experiment but an intangible and unknown amount of score later down the road isn't a good enough driving force for people who otherwise are content to fill out their realm size, and then play sim city until conversion time. We need either meatier achievements, Victory Cards or just leave it as an extra on the side but make the main attraction people beating the stuffing out of each other. Size limits should remain in order to prevent snowballing, and allow eliminated players to rebuild on the fringes so they can get back into the game quickly.


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