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Marine
Posted: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:42:58 PM
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Quote:
One Rule about Italy that came to my mind last time is this:
If Paris has fallen or if it's June 1940 or later, then they may join the war together with Germany and declare war on the Balkan countries and others.


I wrote it ,but now that i look at it , I see that it maybe have to be clearer.

As for Italy to be allowed to attack a country in the Balkans they first have to have joined the war with Germany ,not just be in the Faction.

Quote:
If you are a Fascist or Non-Aligned(some special cases) country then you can join the Axis after these dates for the respective countries:
Bulgaria: March 1941.
Romania: November 1940.
Hungary: November 1940.
Spain: They can join the war after June 1940 if Gibraltar has fallen or the State of London has fallen and if not the date is November 1941 for joining the War.
They should not be allowed to stall the SCW more than to 28 March 1939 when it ended historically.


Maybe the same should be with these countries, that they have to have joined the Germans in the war before they are allowed to attack another country.

Taking over countries via NF should be allowed and get claims, but not DOW´s.

I know that I wrote these rules ,so I will take a new look at them to see what we should use.

The rule should be that you as a Axis country have to wait until you can join the war with Germany and not just the Faction until you should be allowed to DOW another country.
Marine
Posted: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:51:43 PM
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Quote:
Hard one. Strategically speaking it's a bit of a balance problem but then again the various intelligence communities and HQs during the war got pretty solid intel on enemy equipment quite fast. Sometimes even before it got into active service (but then some were mere fantasies or propaganda). Most intel came from combat or recon though and not from industrial espionage (as far as is known since a lot of sources and methodology are still secret to this day).
The real problem I see is that stats are available for all to see by a simple license check (even if it's not accepted) and that's from the very moment that the research has been completed or the variant created (ie before production of said equipment have commenced).
I would say yes for countries you're not at war with and no for countries with which you are. But I'm open to anything. It's an intriguing feature in many ways that adds depth (especially with all the custom naming).


I agree with you .

When at Peace it´s OK and when at War not OK.
Alex_brunius
Posted: Wednesday, July 05, 2017 10:52:53 PM
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Marine wrote:
I will change that rule to this: You are free to put GoI on any country you want.


Just remove it. The basic assumption is that anything that's not an exploit or not in the rules is allowed to do, right?

If we are going to explicitly state everything your allowed to do it's going to be a very very long list of rules Tongue


Praetori wrote:

I would say yes for countries you're not at war with and no for countries with which you are. But I'm open to anything. It's an intriguing feature in many ways that adds depth (especially with all the custom naming).


Request Licence Production is locked with nations your at war with automatically by the game, no rule needed for that.
Marine
Posted: Thursday, July 06, 2017 10:03:24 AM
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Quote:
Just remove it. The basic assumption is that anything that's not an exploit or not in the rules is allowed to do, right?

If we are going to explicitly state everything your allowed to do it's going to be a very very long list of rules Tongue


A great then I can remove a lot of stuff.

If uncertain just ask if it´s okay or something i can write.

I will make changes to the rules according to this.

Quote:
Request Licence Production is locked with nations your at war with automatically by the game, no rule needed for that.


Good to know Smile
Alex_brunius
Posted: Thursday, July 06, 2017 1:34:09 PM
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Marine wrote:
A great then I can remove a lot of stuff.

If uncertain just ask if it´s okay or something i can write.

I will make changes to the rules according to this.



Perfect! IMO good rules should be as simple and short as possible and also try to not repeat the same things or obvious things twice anywhere.
Marine
Posted: Thursday, July 13, 2017 4:28:51 PM
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Hello everyone,

I have been thinking on one thing since yesterday and earlier as well.

When we play our countries ,then we are the leaders of those.

So my question is:

How hard should we be on some decisions, like when we can join a faction, join the war ,send Lend Lease and so?

Some countries like USA, should of course have special rules about this.

China can´t be attacked before July 1937.
Barbarossa starts after June 1941.
Danzig or War has to start before all hell breaks lose.
World Tension and focuses can steer some of the Historical decisions that where made by the leaders at that time.

So what do you think, should I try and make the Rules more free ,so that we can decide more for our country or not?

We have to think about Balance of course, like USA can´t join by them self to earlier.

We still also want to have a World War 2, but our War, by our Rules and decisions.

A new draft of the Rules will be up soon, but the old ones are still the ones we use.

Praetori
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 12:51:21 AM
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I've been thinking that US Lend Lease to the UK/Commonwealth might need additional triggers. One that comes to mind is the US NF Arsenal of Democracy.
Thus if the US goes down that tree (which has WT prerequisites with tags on GER and UK) then wouldn't that be suitable as a trigger point for when the US can send lend-lease?
Something like: Is March '41 or later OR has NF Arsenal of Democracy.

It would be kinda cool to mod house-rules according to NFs as well (or even add custom NFs with trigger-points in dates or occupied provinces or similar to allow/disallow certain actions). Then we could get some interesting decisions in game-play other than just house-rules.

Just some ideas but the main point I wanted to make was that more freedom under the rules could be "policed" by having NFs as triggers for what you're allowed to do or not instead of set dates.
Another example could be Italy joining the war. Instead of having a set date when they're allowed to join Germany's war we could have German NF "Alliance with Italy" and Italian NF "Pact of Steel" as prerequisite (thus requiring both to be picked if Italy is to join before the fall of France).
Likewise we can (and already do in some cases) enforce rules on NF starting dates (this is easy enough to mod as well) which would then act as base prerequisites (for example, Danzig or War cannot be picked until month X '39).

TLDR; We could potentially base some of the historicity house-rules around NFs like we already do with dates and NFs. It's easier to remember and connect and more importantly it then ties into in-game decisions since you'll need to think and chose in order to enable/disable house-rule limitations.
Alex_brunius
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 9:06:28 AM
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Marine wrote:
Hello everyone,

So my question is:

How hard should we be on some decisions, like when we can join a faction, join the war ,send Lend Lease and so?

Some countries like USA, should of course have special rules about this.

China can´t be attacked before July 1937.
Barbarossa starts after June 1941.
Danzig or War has to start before all hell breaks lose.
World Tension and focuses can steer some of the Historical decisions that where made by the leaders at that time.

So what do you think, should I try and make the Rules more free ,so that we can decide more for our country or not?


I think that removing some rules restricting when Axis can attack might be a good idea. Especially how soon they can attack Soviet. Giving Soviet a "Magic shield" until June 1941 means they can feel 100% safe until then and prepare an optimal buildup making them very strong since they know then don't need a working army in 1939 or even in 1940. You could build Civilian Industry + Infrastructure only for 2-3 years and end up with a monster Soviet basically knowing your totally immune from attack.

I think the MR pact in the game puts sufficient limits on how soon Soviet can be attacked, and adds additional depth to German play, such that if you want to attack early you want to sign the MR pact early so the NAP will expire sooner, but not too early since this might alert the Soviet/Allied players of your plan.

China doesn't matter that much to be honest with AI china, is there a reason we have this rule?


Danzig or war as a limit before you can DoW is probably a good rule to keep though since it limits how much ahistorical you can go, and prevents WT from going to 100% in 1936 or 1937 as Axis fight over eachother who can gobble up the most AI minors first which doesn't lend itself to a fun game.


Praetori wrote:
I've been thinking that US Lend Lease to the UK/Commonwealth might need additional triggers. One that comes to mind is the US NF Arsenal of Democracy.
Thus if the US goes down that tree (which has WT prerequisites with tags on GER and UK) then wouldn't that be suitable as a trigger point for when the US can send lend-lease?
Something like: Is March '41 or later OR has NF Arsenal of Democracy.

It would be kinda cool to mod house-rules according to NFs as well (or even add custom NFs with trigger-points in dates or occupied provinces or similar to allow/disallow certain actions). Then we could get some interesting decisions in game-play other than just house-rules.

Just some ideas but the main point I wanted to make was that more freedom under the rules could be "policed" by having NFs as triggers for what you're allowed to do or not instead of set dates.
Another example could be Italy joining the war. Instead of having a set date when they're allowed to join Germany's war we could have German NF "Alliance with Italy" and Italian NF "Pact of Steel" as prerequisite (thus requiring both to be picked if Italy is to join before the fall of France).
Likewise we can (and already do in some cases) enforce rules on NF starting dates (this is easy enough to mod as well) which would then act as base prerequisites (for example, Danzig or War cannot be picked until month X '39).

TLDR; We could potentially base some of the historicity house-rules around NFs like we already do with dates and NFs. It's easier to remember and connect and more importantly it then ties into in-game decisions since you'll need to think and chose in order to enable/disable house-rule limitations.


US Lend Lease is restricted in game by WT and Isolation Law, and in practice they can LL as soon as WT is over 50% and they get out of Isolation at the moment, but it should be very easy to mod/increase that limit based on another WT level. I think it might be reasonable to allow US Lend Lease as soon as WT gets over 70-80%, which it tends to do in 1939-40 if Axis is aggressive like in the current game ( annex China + Balkans ).

http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Ideology#Democracy
http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Ideas#Economy_laws

Edit: It seems USA also get a national spirit further lowering LL WT limit by -15% to an actual 35% WT after taking a closer look.
Marine
Posted: Friday, July 14, 2017 9:33:36 PM
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Great input of Alex and Praetori concerning Rules Smile

I will put up my latest draft of the Rules as they are right now.

I feel that later on we need to sit down and give 1 or 2 hours to talk about rules and modding to make our gaming experience as good as it can be.

So here come the latest version of the Rules:

Things in Red are changed since last time I put these up.
If you have not read these new Rules at all there some changes from those that we use now.
Things in green are new from the rules that we use in thew current game:


This is the House Rules in our group!

Game speed is 4 or 3 in peace time.
Game speed when at war is 2 or 1.
You are allowed to load into the saved game between sessions to look at things on your country.

Any mods that do not change checksum are allowed (graphics/sound/Interface mods).

We always play with historical AI focuses on.

Historical major events and focuses until the focus Danzig or War is finished.
You should also play with a historical common sense in mind.

Declaration of Wars:

Justifying a war goal is allowed before the actual DOW.

NEW:No DOW´s that are not historical for Non Axis countries is allowed until after Paris has fallen.

No DOW´s that are not historical for Axis countries is allowed before Danzig or War, minors have to join the Axis faction first.

Axis or Comintern should not be allowed to take over countries via focuses before operation Danzig or War, unless they are historical takeovers.

You are not allowed to DOW Turkey(Maybe we should allow Turkey to be attacked before Barbarossa ?), Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan before Barbarossa has started.

You may join the faction of yours before you can enter the war, but some countries have special rules on this.

War entries and other specific country Rules:

Germany:

NEW:They have to start WW2 with the NF Danzig or War, but they need to have the NF Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact before.
NEW:To allow Italy to join them before the Fall of Paris they need to have the German NF "Alliance with Italy"

They can start to send Lend Lease to China as soon as they are at war with Japan, but no volunteers is allowed to be sent.
They can start to send Lend Lease and volunteers to National Spain as soon as SCW starts.

They have to do the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.
They must give Eastern Poland to the USSR.
NEW:They can DOW Soviet after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact has been cancelled

Japan:

NEW:They can DOW China when they feel that they are ready for it.
After China has fallen they may DOW USA, UK and the rest of the Commonwealth, but not before Danzig or War.
They may also start to DOW the following Asian countries: Tibet, Bhutan and Nepal, but not before Danzig or War.
If the Netherlands has fallen in Europe, then they can DOW the Dutch East Indies.
They may not DOW Soviet or it´s Allies) until operation Barbarossa has started.
NEW:When Italy is at war with the Allies, then they can join the Axis faction.

Italy:

NEW:To be able to join the Axis faction and war, Paris has to fall first or if they have the Italian NF "Pact of Steel", then they can join earlier and start to make DOW´s on the Balkan countries and others.
They can start to send Lend Lease and volunteers to National Spain as soon as SCW starts.
The war with Ethiopia has to be finished before September 1938.

Soviet:

NEW:Germany can DOW you after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact has been cancelled

You may DOW Finland and the Baltic states after Danzig or War, you can also make claims on Romania.
NEW:They are allowed to DOW the Axis if one of these three/two conditions are meet: If the Axis takes a mainland port in the Ireland/UK(including Shetland Islands) or if Suez and the Levant is taken and the Bosphorus Strait is threatened by the Axis or if Turkey is allowed to be attacked) See more of this at the end of this post.
When the war between Japan and China starts, then they are allowed to send Lend Lease to China, but no volunteers is allowed.(If they get a Non-Aggression Pact with Japan ,then they have to stop the Lend Lease)
They can start to send Lend Lease and Volunteers to Republican Spain as soon as SCW starts.
No Soviet Volunteers or Lend-Lease to the Allies is allowed, since they didn't do it in WW2.
You must accept the tank treaty.

USA:

NEW:They can only join the Allies, if one of these three conditions below are meet:
They are attacked or Japan DOW´s SOV, DEI, UK(Commonwealth) or if the Axis captures a mainland naval port in Ireland/UK.(including Shetland Islands)

They may not DOW any country until they are at war with Germany or Japan, not even from focuses.
They are not allowed to do coups or support parties until they are at war.
They may not use the following focuses until at War(Black Chamber Operation and Preemptive Intervention) since they are not historical.
NEW:They are allowed to send Lend Lease to the Allies/Comintern if they have the NF Arsenal of Democracy.
No Lend-Lease is allowed to be sent to Soviet until after operation Barbarossa has started.
They are also not allowed to send any Volunteers at all.
NEW:When World Tension(WT) is high enough they can join the allies faction.

United Kingdom and the Commonwealth:

The Low Countries(Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg) may not be invited to the Allied faction before Danzig or War.
When Germany´s war with Poland has started you can start to send land and air units to France.
No Lend-Lease is allowed to be sent to Soviet until after operation Barbarossa has started.

France:

You can get Level 2 forts via focuses and then you can build them manually up to level 5 ,but not higher.

Neutral and Minor countries:

NEW:Spain: They can only join the Axis faction and war if the allies has taken all of North Africa or if Barbarossa has started.
They have to finish the SCW before March 1939 when it ended historically.

NEW: If you play a neutral/minor country that is not Communist or Fascist then you can join the Allies faction and war after USA has entered the war.

If you are a Communist country then you can join the Comintern after Barbarossa has started.

NEW:If you are a Fascist country then you can join the Axis faction and war after Italy is at war with the Allies.

Diplomacy:

You are allowed to do anything concerning diplomacy with the following exceptions:

No sending Volunteers or Lend Lease to other Pre-WW2 conflicts than the Spanish Civil War and the war between China and Japan is allowed.

It´s allowed to support your own ideology in another country, but only against the AI.

Coups are only allowed against the AI, but only after Danzig or War.

Player controlled countries have to follow their historical ideology (Democracy, Fascist, Non-Aligned or Comintern), but is allowed to change if needed in some special cases.
A players country may not be converted away from their faction’s ideology by its controller or outside forces, unless it´s necessary to help them come to their right historical government.


You may NOT attack a nation that you have a GoI with, unless it joins a faction or alliance you're at war with.

You are allowed to send and receive EXP Forces,but the following rule has to be followed then:
You are only allowed to use them defensively and never have them in a offensive operation, unless you don´t build up a planning bonus with them.

Alliances that do not have anything to do with WW2 is not allowed, use your common sense about what feels like it could have happened in the war.

You are allowed give military access to a country that are at war, that you share a common border with and have the same enemy.(it will be limited around the border area only)

Mixed rules:

If something is not in here it´s allowed, but ask first to be certain.

This is the Rules about Tech research:
1. You are only allowed to research up to 1 year in advance with no bonus.
2. 1.5 years in advance if you have 50% bonus.
3. 2 years in advance if you have a 100% ahead bonus.

Only 5 levels on both variants of Forts is allowed to be built manually, but can be higher with a focus if they can get higher with that.(France has a special rule about this)

Axis and Japanese Fleets/Troops/Aircrafts should remain in their own theatre of war, but if Suez is in Axis control then they can move into other theatres.

Templates:

You are not allowed to have more ART (Variants included) Battalions than INF in a Division.

These template changes is allowed:

CAV>INF>MOT>MECH and vice versa.
ART>SPA and vice versa.
AA>SPAAG and vice versa.
AT>TD and vice versa.
LARM>MARM>HARM>SHARM and vice versa.
ELITE INF>ELITE INF.

These Template changes is not allowed:
CAV/INF(Elite)/MOT/MECH>Armor and vice versa.
INF>Elite INF(Marines/Para/Mountaineers.)


You should also not be allowed to combine more than 2 ARM/SPG/TD/SPAAG with Elite INF.

Exploits:

No exploits of any kind is allowed. If in doubt, ask the the other players first.

Setting fleets on Never Engage AND/OR Never Repair to have them flee every naval battle while maintaining naval supremacy is not allowed.
If you see this, then tell them at once ,because it can also be a mistake since they are not turned on to engage after repairs.

Dropping paratroopers on enemy retreat destinations or forcing evacuating amphibious assaults to retreat inland should be allowed.

Deleting almost encircled divisions is not allowed.

Changing templates of volunteer or encircled forces is not allowed.
No template switching should be allowed at the front with newly arrived units.
When you change a Template then just use a common sense on this matter on where it is appropriate to do it

Giving away states to other Countries(Players) just for building purposes(Factories/Yards) is not allowed, but for resources and strategic reasons is´t OK.
You should also only be allowed to do this with countries in the same theatre of war.

There can be exceptions from this ,but ask before you do something wrong.

Questions:






Marine
Posted: Tuesday, July 25, 2017 12:28:22 PM
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Hello,

I have been updating the page above where I put up the newest Rules and suggestions in it.
Marine
Posted: Saturday, August 05, 2017 11:07:10 AM
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Some question or suggestions:


This is a old Rules from HOI 3:

You are not allowed to DOW Turkey, Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan before Barbarossa has started.

New rule suggestion for allowing Soviet in to the war:
Oldest Rule:
Soviet can't be attacked by Germany before June 1941.
Soviet is only allowed to attack Finland and the Baltic states after Danzig or War(They get war goals from the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact), they may also claim Bessarabia from Romania.
They are allowed to declare war on the Axis if one of these two conditions are met: Axis lands in the British Isles (including Ireland) Or if it's January 1942 or later. (The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact has to be cancelled first if it's activated).

1st Suggestion:
Germany can DOW you after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact has been cancelled
They are allowed to DOW the Axis if one of these three/two conditions are meet: If the Axis takes a mainland port in the Ireland/UK(including Shetland Islands) or if Suez and the Levant is taken and the Bosphorus Strait is threatened by the Axis or if Turkey is allowed to be attacked)

2nd Suggestion:
Germany can DOW you after the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact has been cancelled
They are allowed to DOW the Axis if one of these three/two conditions are meet: If the Axis takes a mainland port in the Ireland/UK(including Shetland Islands) or if Suez and the Levant is taken and the Bosphorus Strait is threatened by the Axis or if Turkey is allowed to be attacked)

So one big question is should we allow Germany(Axis) to attack Turkey before Barbarossa and den allow Soviet to DOW the Axis?

I do feel that Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan should not be allowed to be attacked before Barbarossa has started as we have had it since HOI3.

My thoughts behind these new rules is:

If the Bosphorus Strait is threatened or Turkey attacked by the Axis I think that they should not like it and attack the Axis.
Also if Suez and the Levant falls, that they should start to be afraid that Caucasus is threatened maybe and that the Allies might need help, when they have lost most of the African theatre.








Alex_brunius
Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 1:07:31 AM
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Marine wrote:

Deleting encircled/almost encircled divisions is not allowed.


Do we want to allow deleting of fully encircled units now since you lose 80% equipment and 100% manpower when doing so? ( A bug with this that I didn't keep track off has been fixed, so it works properly the ways the devs scripted it now ).
Marine
Posted: Monday, August 07, 2017 6:27:02 PM
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Alex_brunius wrote:
Do we want to allow deleting of fully encircled units now since you lose 80% equipment and 100% manpower when doing so? ( A bug with this that I didn't keep track off has been fixed, so it works properly the ways the devs scripted it now ).


I did not know that it was a bug around this thing.
I think that we can allow it ,now that you loose so much equipment and manpower when doing so, but only for fully encircled units.

Good of you Alex to report this Smile
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