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Song of the Dead Take II Discussion Thread. Options · View
The Professor
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 4:27:38 PM
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I like the idea of introducing some RP elements into the game for people who wanna play in the HRE sandbox clubhouse, and to allow for the HRE to convert with a decent size over Europe; unlike Baron style Emperor+Player vassals we seem like to have a much better recipe for intrigue and instability; and even if it *is* stable the proposed ruleset keeps it unstable.

I do think that being Emperor should come with a bonus to your size; so that other people are incentivized to either be Emperor of HRE or Byz; and perhaps tie this bonus to having at least a few human vassals.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Vaniver
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 6:38:02 PM
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I claim that keeping the size limit as-is for the Emperor will result in a permanently AI emperor, and that this will make it impossible to enforce any other restrictions on the emperor that aren't in-game. (For example, the idea that the emperor should only use his personal levies and retinue is something that the AI will not respect, and similarly for having a player council, and the latter seems important to potentially protect titles from revocation.)

I feel somewhat strongly that we should either have a human emperor or no empire, and if we're going to do the latter we should do it sooner rather than later.
Ranger9000
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:05:40 PM
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I agree with vaviner. If the emperor is ai then all the rules on it go out the window and it's going to be seriously unbalanced
The Professor
Posted: Wednesday, October 11, 2017 10:26:18 PM
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Right now it's Khan, if we switched it to Elective then next time it might not be the AI.

I think the Ai is less capable of using its force limit and income or position effectively as a human would, and isn't nearly as much as a concern.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
dragoon9105
Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 5:05:34 AM
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Khan isn't a player, He doesn't have to obey the size limit rule becuase he ultimately does not get score and is not allowed to eliminate players.
King of Men
Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 6:45:55 AM
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Obviously an AI emperor does not follow any rules. The question is whether an AI emperor is a sufficiently major problem for everyone else that it's worth editing to fix, and also how long it would remain AI. My understanding is that it's not that hard for a human vassal skilled in the art to become emperor instead of the emperor.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
James Craig
Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 7:01:47 AM
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We can always leave it to khan to roleplay the emperor to his actual TRAITS. Let him go insane with it (Perhaps literally.) If the ruler sucks let players fix it or watch their empire burn. If you use a few of dragoons suggestions you can stop it from being a WC empire pretty easily. Khan doesn't have to help anyone. All he has to do is believably play his ruler, no matter what. Zealous? Burn the heretic! Paranoid? Clearly the most powerful player needs to be humbled (Or killed before he can kill you) Greedy? Jack those taxes up! etc...


Vae Victis!
The Professor
Posted: Thursday, October 12, 2017 4:21:33 PM
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IIRC Khan only intended to be here for like one-two sessions, so at some point we'll have a possibly AI Emperor.

I'm not sure how good it is to have rules like "Abide by your traits" but rather than just the temporary Khan any player Emperor had to do so could also help prevent the Empire from being a tool for expansion/WC.

Basically, I don't want the game to be a game about blobbing, and for people to have fun while outside or inside the blob; if this is maintained and the game remains principly about consolidating your power within your size limit and farming conversion points than the size of any Empire doesn't matter so much as long as it isnt a matter of existentialism.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
King of Men
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 6:59:49 AM
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Ok, decision time. No special HRE rules, no edited breakup. It does not seem to me that we have a huge number of people gung-ho to play the HRE Dukes game, so let's just treat it as any other title; if you can grab it, good for you, now reduce the realm size. Conversely I think an AI emperor is not the massive must-be-inside-to-play threat that a human one is, so no breakup is needed. That said, taking off my GM hat and putting on the player hat, I am here for a faction to revolt against the Karlings.

I'm not sure the Hand of History thing worked very well as an overlord for players; it is perhaps better suited for a plain antagonist, ie the Mongols and Aztecs. I suggest Khan, if he wants to play, either take an actual player slot, sub the currently-hypothetical South Spain player, or take an OPM count somewhere he can observe.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Yami-Yagari
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 8:10:43 AM
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Does that mean charlie's gonna be AI now?
James Craig
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 9:00:31 AM
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Well thats disappointing. The whole thing sounded really cool...

Vae Victis!
Ranger9000
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 9:22:21 AM
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Well, time to prepare the noose.
Yami-Yagari
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 10:29:25 AM
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Ranger9000 wrote:
Well, time to prepare the noose.
why? Charlie has over 80% threat, with whole the world united against him. If he declares war, hè"ll definitely lose. Which will possibly trigger successful faction revolts.
dragoon9105
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 5:57:02 PM
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Alright well with the end of the hre looming we can take our partition talk to the diplo room I set up
Vaniver
Posted: Friday, October 13, 2017 7:16:27 PM
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What, if anything, is changing about the mod this week?
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, October 14, 2017 4:27:36 AM
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dragoon9105 wrote:
Alright well with the end of the hre looming we can take our partition talk to the diplo room I set up


Am I invited?

Incidentally, people who were in PM conversations with me might want to check their inboxen, Ederon's notifications are somewhat imperfect.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
dragoon9105
Posted: Saturday, October 14, 2017 4:47:21 AM
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Your in it. Voltaire's Nightmare.
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, October 14, 2017 6:56:50 AM
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Ok, I'll read it now. I haven't looked in there because nobody sent me a PM saying "You're in Dip room 6", and nobody made a membership tracking thread in dip room 6. I didn't want to look in the thread itself to figure out from context whether I was in it or not. So you've been missing out on my sharp insights and sparkling wit. Smile

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, October 14, 2017 7:23:31 AM
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I have updated the rules thread; pray I do not update it further take a look, see if I missed anything. Additionally I created a Pdox AAR thread, post your AARs there as well, please!

Achievements post to follow done.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Vaniver
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 12:12:32 AM
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I note the rules thread does not have the rule against seniority succession; oversight or deliberate choice?

---

Also, I checked out the save; Mark was Dragoon's assassin.

---

The realm size limits explicitly don't hit AI characters of a player's dynasty. But how does that interact with conversion? For example, suppose I don't reduce the size of Emperor Haelcomarch and instead next session play as various Ivering dukes or kings, like Austrasia or Navarra, always picking someone with less than 150 realm size. Suppose the HRE gets up to 300 realm size at the end of the CKII phase; obviously I can't say "okay, I'm going to play as the emperor" and convert with ~800 dev.

But presumably it wouldn't be the case that I convert as some small country with the Empire as a march; instead the empire would convert with the HRE mechanics, with the various sub-realms as individual nations, and I would get to pick any of the Iverings to play (so long as their realm, as seen by the converter, had less than 150 realm size, even if they were the emperor).

Basically, should I be playing a subset of the HRE and trying to grow it, or should I be trying to set myself up with 150 realm size like everyone else, with presumably the HRE in EU4 corresponding to the de jure HRE at the end of CKII?
Gollevainen
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 8:15:29 AM
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Mupdates!!

FÜR DEN SCHUTZ DER ARBEITER UND BAUERN MACHT


Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
dragoon9105
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 8:34:19 AM
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As Soon As I can

In the mean time

We have a discord ladies and Gentle Fish

https://discord.gg/W9AAD4v
King of Men
Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 8:56:17 AM
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I was in a hurry at the session and missed this: Thanks to oddman for subbing. Golle has no cause for complaint even though Wessex is, sadly, no more.

Which, of course, brings up the question of slot-switching and what slots are available. I would suggest that players ought to stand to their guns as long as a slot has some hope, including diplomacy; we have the realm-size limits and the packing of Western Europe for a reason. However, ultimately it is the player's judgement what is playable and not. As I noted earlier, we'll open slots going eastwards from the existing ones. Norway is now clearly not available any more, so I would say the currently open slots are Greece, Ukraine, Egypt. Tunis is a possibility if you don't mind being somewhat close to Sardinia and south Italy.

Quote:
I note the rules thread does not have the rule against seniority succession; oversight or deliberate choice?


Thanks; I missed that, updated. While I was editing anyway I changed the "Live and Die" achievement slightly:

  • Live and Die at My Post: Be present or subbed for the full four hours of every session. 5 points.

    since it makes no sense to penalise someone for absence if they found a sub.

    Quote:
    Also, I checked out the save; Mark was Dragoon's assassin.


    Noted.

    Quote:
    But how does [AI realm size] interact with conversion?


    I'll think a bit about this.

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
  • Gollevainen
    Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 12:09:42 PM
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    Wait what? I need pick a new position?

    FÜR DEN SCHUTZ DER ARBEITER UND BAUERN MACHT


    Irsh Faq wrote:
    I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
    James Craig
    Posted: Monday, October 16, 2017 12:29:42 PM
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    He formed england for your dynasty and earned you achievement points. You have a kingdom title now, so wessex is no more.

    Vae Victis!
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