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Song of the Dead Take II Discussion Thread. Options · View
KhanXLT
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 6:32:24 AM
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The problem we run into Ranger is that if you can walk 100k troops to ivory coast, why shouldn't anyone who invades you do as well? if we draw a line from Tunis to ivory coast at what point can we only take 25%?
Yami-Yagari
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 6:58:46 AM
 Generalmajor


Joined: 1/16/2014
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Easiest way to solve it were to designate by region what counts as north african med, and what counts as african interior, and apply colonial rules accordingly.

Edit: looking at the supernation map of africa, Maghreb, Egypt and Sahel should definitely be 100%, with possibly Niger.and Horn of Africa.

Leaving niger and HoA out in hopes of balancing out/ encouraging possible colonial wars on Africa. But as for the rest, 25% applies.
Vaniver
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 9:17:44 AM
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It seems to me like the obvious border is where the land connection (through non-wasteland and non-off limits provinces) becomes a single province wide; that looks like Beafada on the western side (conveniently, it's savannah and the province south of it, Sierra Leone, is jungle) and then Kismayo on the eastern side (which happens to be the start of the Zanzibar trade node).
Ranger9000
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 9:19:01 AM
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Vaniver wrote:
It seems to me like the obvious border is where the land connection (through non-wasteland and non-off limits provinces) becomes a single province wide; that looks like Beafada on the western side (conveniently, it's savannah and the province south of it, Sierra Leone, is jungle) and then Kismayo on the eastern side (which happens to be the start of the Zanzibar trade node).


This would be fine with me.
Yami-Yagari
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 9:47:19 AM
 Generalmajor


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Vaniver wrote:
It seems to me like the obvious border is where the land connection (through non-wasteland and non-off limits provinces) becomes a single province wide; that looks like Beafada on the western side (conveniently, it's savannah and the province south of it, Sierra Leone, is jungle) and then Kismayo on the eastern side (which happens to be the start of the Zanzibar trade node).

When you have time, make a map. Because description alone makes it sound very esotheric.
Vaniver
Posted: Thursday, March 08, 2018 11:54:07 PM
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Yami-Yagari wrote:
When you have time, make a map. Because description alone makes it sound very esotheric.


(Note that the Gulf of Aden node all counts as North Africa, even though it gets to single width, because Mogadishu is a CoT and right by the bottom.)
King of Men
Posted: Friday, March 09, 2018 6:26:22 AM
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Vaniver's map looks good to me. Let it be so.

Regarding the tributaries-everywhere idea, I've seen several good arguments against and not much support; no change to tributaries.

Since the Mandate seems bugged and I cannot figure out how to fix the bug, I will edit Wuu back to a despotic monarchy.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2018 4:25:59 AM
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I have increased the gold AAR reward to 400 ducats; next increase after the session that includes 1644.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Gollevainen
Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2018 12:03:56 PM
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What that map is supposed to show?



Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
Yami-Yagari
Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2018 1:58:40 PM
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Gollevainen wrote:
What that map is supposed to show?
the boundary where colonial rules apply for ranger. Everything blue 100% FL, Everything red 25%.
Gollevainen
Posted: Saturday, March 10, 2018 2:19:39 PM
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ok thanks for the clarification



Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
King of Men
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 6:35:27 AM
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So there was some discussion about how colonial wars work with colonial nations, especially how the CN can finish the war if it is winning, since it is forbidden to attack European homelands and is quite unlikely to acquire 100% warscore. Possibly less relevant now that James is independent, but we do still have Ziro. There was a proposed solution involving warscore and time, but I don't want to dig through Discord for it; can someone reconstruct it? Alternatively, suggest your own solution.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Vaniver
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 7:46:55 AM
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King of Men wrote:
So there was some discussion about how colonial wars work with colonial nations, especially how the CN can finish the war if it is winning, since it is forbidden to attack European homelands and is quite unlikely to acquire 100% warscore. Possibly less relevant now that James is independent, but we do still have Ziro. There was a proposed solution involving warscore and time, but I don't want to dig through Discord for it; can someone reconstruct it? Alternatively, suggest your own solution.
Discord's search is actually quite good; 'ticking' jumps you to the right spot as the first few results.

The summary: in EU4, ticking warscore is only accrued when a side is winning. If a side reaches [maximum / the equivalent of 5 years] of ticking warscore, they can declare the war won, and send a peace deal with only demands in the [colonial region / overseas region], which the other side must accept. (This is better than a threshold based on overall war length because it is more resistant to sudden reversals, and is better than a threshold based on war score because with large empires on either side, the colonial region's contribution to the war score will be tiny.)
dragoon9105
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 6:24:27 PM
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We never established Colonial region or continent the rule was originally man to allow for Wars across multiple continents just not in the Homeland
Vaniver
Posted: Tuesday, March 13, 2018 11:10:04 PM
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I also forgot to add the discussion that we might want to restrict such wars against CNs to people who already have CNs (while you can declare colonial wars against other old world powers even if you don't have your own), so that there's some potential benefit to the CN rather than just survival.
King of Men
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 6:00:46 AM
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Quote:
If a side reaches [maximum / the equivalent of 5 years] of ticking warscore, they can declare the war won, and send a peace deal with only demands in the [colonial region / overseas region], which the other side must accept.


As written, this seems to force any peace whatsoever, up to and including annexation of all the losing side's colonies in the area. Perhaps if we limit the peace cost to the actual warscore achieved?

Quote:
I also forgot to add the discussion that we might want to restrict such wars against CNs to people who already have CNs


I'm not quite clear on what's being suggested. It seems difficult to declare a war against a CN against someone who doesn't have a CN. Can you clarify, perhaps with an example?

We should also consider whether these rules would apply only to played CNs, to all CNs played or not, or to all colonial wars including ones that don't involve CNs. Thoughts?

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Vaniver
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 8:43:32 PM
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King of Men wrote:
As written, this seems to force any peace whatsoever, up to and including annexation of all the losing side's colonies in the area. Perhaps if we limit the peace cost to the actual warscore achieved?
This seems like it might limit colonial wars to 25 development (assuming the war is effectively a stalemate with 25% ticking warscore), which seems too low. Remember that the problem is that high-development homelands screw up the war score. A better restriction might be that you can only ask for provinces you occupy (such that you have to completely occupy 100 dev to seize it).

(Also, to be clear, my view is that only territorial claims are valid in forced peaces--you can't force war reparations or ducat transfers or so on.)

King of Men wrote:
I'm not quite clear on what's being suggested. It seems difficult to declare a war against a CN against someone who doesn't have a CN. Can you clarify, perhaps with an example?
Suppose Khazaria, with no colonial provinces of their own, declares a colonial war against Brazil. Brazil now has nothing to gain and everything to lose, and Khazaria nothing to lose and everything to gain. (Brazil can't even get an Old World ally to march armies into Khazaria as part of the same war.) If, in contrast, Great Britain declares war on Brazil, Great Britain has 'skin in the game' in that their colonies could be conquered by Brazil.
dragoon9105
Posted: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 10:41:53 PM
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Your aware for that situation to work, Khazaria has to declare an Imperialism or no cb war to even get to that point. Colonial wars are also, not limited wars. Someone in Europe could declare a real war to take advantage of Khazaria sending 25% of its force limit to attack brazil for very minimal gain.

Also there is something for Brazil to Gain, 25% warscore of wealth for what would be a fairly easy war since all they need to do is prevent a landing for 5 years.
King of Men
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 4:21:44 AM
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Requiring the declarer of a colonial war to have at least one colony, or province that could be invaded without breaking the rules, seems fairly reasonable to me.

It has come to my attention that there is some justified confusion on where Europe ends and Asia begins, for purposes of the overseas-25%-FL rule. In particular it's not clear whether the Persia area is Europe or Asia. Now, it seems to me that it should be the same continent as Arabia, since you can fairly easily walk between those two; but then, it should also be the same continent as India, which is clearly Asia. So, rather than rule it part of one or the other, I am considering making it a "debatable land" where both European and Asian powers are allowed to fight with their whole force limit, as I did for the Caribbean with respect to North and South America. This has the advantage that it means we could have an actual serious war of Europe against Asia without one side fighting at one-fourth strength, while at the same time no current player's heartland is at risk. We might have a look around for other continental border areas where such a rule could be applied; Central America comes to mind. Thoughts?

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Yami-Yagari
Posted: Friday, March 16, 2018 8:03:28 AM
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It would incentivize asian colonization by means of offering a fair fight to western colonizers..
King of Men
Posted: Sunday, March 18, 2018 11:17:57 PM
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I didn't get around to updating this, but: After discussion in Discord we reached the conclusion that borderline areas are basically covered by the "within reason" clause.

Regarding colonial wars: As noted during the session, we will basically adopt Vaniver's suggestion. I'll add this to the CW rules: You may only declare a colonial war if you have colonies yourself (either colonial nations, trade companies, or provinces which are overseas with respect to you), so that your target can counter-attack and gain something. In a colonial war, if the warscore reaches its maximum, you may force-peace for provinces you occupy, and nothing else - no reparations, no gold, just occupied territory. If you do not force-peace, but reach a peace agreement by negotiation, you may use any peace terms you like.

Also added this to the overseas forces rule: This rule may be temporarily relaxed if a player nation currently AI attacks you, since the AI is quite unlikely to follow it.

I remind everyone that the deadline for AARs is the beginning of the session.

It appears to me that Yue are a fairly dead slot. Anyone think yue're just pining for the fiords and should be protected?

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Ranger9000
Posted: Monday, March 19, 2018 8:58:20 PM
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Just a suggestion for the next time around in a mega campaign. To make it a bit more viable to have multiple CNs in the americas (instead of whoever's CN gets the biggest eating the rest) we could consider a limit on CN's only being able to expand into two Colonial Regions (their home one and one other)

So you could have a Canada+16 Colonies CN but it can't expand into the Louisiana. Or a California+Alaska CN but can't expand into Mexico. This encourages having multiple CNs instead of having super big giant ones and makes the americas more dynamic come V2 and HOI.

LordSauronOfHertfordshire
Posted: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:04:25 PM
 Optio


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I second this idea for next time around. Give some more variety. Obviously to clarify I would only support this for the EU portion only. And perhaps have stages where, say, once you get Imperialism CB, or when you go independent, you can take over one more CN slot, to give you a bit more to do lategame EU4.

Why conquer when diplomacy is just so much easier.
James Craig
Posted: Monday, March 19, 2018 10:27:33 PM
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There should absolutely be a way to unlock more regions for conquest later in the game because this would be incredibly boring without the ability to expand. However I do also agree with the idea that it needs limited somehow. Be careful with whatever you do that becoming a colonial isn't left so unappealing that it just doesn't happen anymore.

I have been having a great time expanding and fighting off old world incursions thus far, and it has made the game in my neck of the woods better then it ever was before. The real issue I think we are having is colonial wars feel a bit all or nothing. If you lose there is a risk you lose far more of your development in one war then a euro nation would ever have to worry about losing. On the flip side if a euro actually loses then his colony might as well be forfeit because the colonial is going to take it wholesale. There should be a balance.

Vae Victis!
KhanXLT
Posted: Monday, March 19, 2018 11:29:39 PM
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The ideal being no player cns
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