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12th HOI4 MP Campaign Options · View
Marine
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2018 6:26:15 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 10/14/2011
Posts: 672
Location: Uppsala/Sweden
Next session is undecided. So no gaming now for some weeks.
We play with a casual style and a Common Historical Sense.
We also don´t tell others how they should play, what to build, research and so on...
Game version will be 1.5.3 Corn Flakes with the DLC Waking the Tiger, samt Alex MP Mod 1.5.3.
We use TS to communicate with.

Countries:

AXIS:

Japan: Marine
Germany: Oddb@ll
Italy: Seseo

ALLIED:

USA: Bpoitier
UK: Alex

COMINTERN:

Soviet: juv95hrn

MINORS:

Nationalist China: hej1215
Canada: Optimerad
Australia: Filips kompis
Manchukuo. Chimaera72
Romania: Praetori?
British Raj: Redcoat

Players:

Marine:
Otimerad:
Bpoitier:
Praetori:
Seseo:
Redcoat:
Oddb@ll:
Alex:
hej1215:
Chimaera72:
juv95hrn:
Eventuellt kompis till Filip
seseo
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2018 7:35:51 PM
 Private 1st Class
One Year Membership Medal

Joined: 4/23/2012
Posts: 27
Önskar testa Italien//Louise
juv95hrn
Posted: Saturday, June 09, 2018 12:56:29 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support Medal

Joined: 9/15/2010
Posts: 552
Location: Sweden
Hello.

I´d like to take on the USSR as first secretary Stalin. If we could arrange for a co-player later on, fx. a player of defeated China this could be useful depending on the amount of Axis players on the Eastern Front.
Oddball
Posted: Saturday, June 09, 2018 2:30:25 PM
 Corporal


Joined: 7/3/2017
Posts: 30
Axis: Manchukou
Allied: Canada or Brazil


Alex_brunius
Posted: Saturday, June 09, 2018 9:46:59 PM
 Hauptmann

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 355
UK, Italy or any allied commonwealth minor, maybe Australia or Canada.
Marine
Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 8:10:08 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 10/14/2011
Posts: 672
Location: Uppsala/Sweden
Axis:
Japan, Romania, Hungary, Manchuko, Italy

Allied:
South Africa, Canada, British Raj, Australia, Brazil, UK, Communist China

AdolfFredrik
Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 8:35:12 PM
 Private 1st Class


Joined: 8/21/2017
Posts: 17
India, China or Hungary
Optimerad
Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 8:37:22 PM
 Stabsgefreiter


Joined: 10/6/2016
Posts: 36
Location: Gothenburg
US, UK, any allied minor, could go for germany if no one else wants to

"Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. Und wenn du lange in einen Abgrund blickst, blickt der Abgrund auch in dich hinein" - F.Nietzsche
Redcoat
Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2018 9:25:38 PM
 Tesserarius

One Year Membership Medal

Joined: 10/23/2011
Posts: 92
Location: Stockholm
Preferenser:
Australien eller Kanada

Marche pour les Suédois (Narvamarschen)
Chimaera72
Posted: Monday, June 11, 2018 3:26:36 PM
 2nd Lieutenant

Joined: 5/14/2013
Posts: 135
Location: Stockholm
Axis: Manchukou
Allied: Canada
juv95hrn
Posted: Friday, June 15, 2018 8:24:48 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support Medal

Joined: 9/15/2010
Posts: 552
Location: Sweden
Since I´m not on WhatsApp I will add my 2 cents here:

Recap of first session:

USSR lost 4 Rifle Divisions during the first week of the SCW. Although annoying I calculated that it is actually only 1 month of rifle production lost. Sure its 8% of my yearly output, but I can live with it. Worth the risk if I had bagged a panzer div.

More harmful was the loss of a single experienced upgraded rifle division at the end of the war, that choose to retreat into Barcelona. But all in all the SCW netted me some nice land experience, and I would do the same stuff again if I had the chance.

As to the idea of sending more tanks or mountain divisions I don´t think personally it is worth the risk, since you are just out for cheap land xp. Me sending a single tank div was more for RP-reason than actual risk-reward.

Well done Germany. I admit it was an Axis victory over all. But an expected and affordable one with considerable advantages for the USSR.



As to the idea of allowing human China to invade Siberia with 200 divisions while I fight 3 other humans alone at the height of Barbarossa I can only reply; Nuts! Do you remember that USSR lost fighting 2v2 on a single front last campaign? What makes you think it would be fait to have to fight 1v4 on the entire Soviet border this time around??? Its a given loss for the Soviets and not how I asked to play so I am against it. Its a shame that Japan lost its entire army in a week of fighting but Id rather edit it back and play a "normal" campaign that totally derail the game. Even human manchuko felt a bit challenging. Has anyone as the USSR had to fight human china allied to Japan ever? Yeah, no its a VERY bad idea.

I dont know how to solve it though. Maybe a permanent non aggression pact between China and the USSR which would allow for a "normal" historical war? It could still end up in a 1v3 situation, Germany, Romania and Japan. Isnt that bad enough? I dont mean primarily resources, but mostly attention span wise its impossible to play that way. I did it a few times in HOI3 when I had supreme command of the game, and it was almost stressful to a sickening level then.

what other options were discussed? Im sure we can find a solution, just not one that is totally unbalanced please. :-)
Alex_brunius
Posted: Saturday, June 16, 2018 3:14:11 PM
 Hauptmann

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 355
juv95hrn wrote:

As to the idea of allowing human China to invade Siberia with 200 divisions while I fight 3 other humans alone at the height of Barbarossa I can only reply; Nuts! Do you remember that USSR lost fighting 2v2 on a single front last campaign? What makes you think it would be fait to have to fight 1v4 on the entire Soviet border this time around??? Its a given loss for the Soviets and not how I asked to play so I am against it.


Well much of the last game it was 1v2 or 1v3 as well ( Soviet coop missing out much and even 1v4 for a bit after Japan joined and Italy had moved some divisions to the front ). Keep in mind that Germany/Italy cannot focus 100% on the East front either, if they can I would personally consider this as a failure since I am playing UK.

I also don't think we would allow it to be 1v4 this time either, we have plenty of allied minors that can hand over their army as expeditionary to me and coop Soviet if necessary, I think it would either be 2v4 or 3v4 in case war breaks out in the East vs Soviet/Japan ( one or two coops for Soviet if you feel a need for it ).


juv95hrn wrote:

Its a shame that Japan lost its entire army in a week of fighting but Id rather edit it back and play a "normal" campaign that totally derail the game. Even human manchuko felt a bit challenging.


The problem is that unless we also change the players I see a big risk that editing units back just will result in them being encircled again, or defeated in some other manner. Don't put the same players in the same situation with the same units and expect a radically different outcome. Sure maybe Japan can play a bit more cautiously a second attempt and don't have such a fast collapse, but the final outcome risks being the same anyways. It also requires alot of fiddling with savegames and I'm not even sure we have a savegame with the Japanese army before outbreak of war..

So I don't see this as a good solution at all to be honest.


juv95hrn wrote:

Has anyone as the USSR had to fight human china allied to Japan ever? Yeah, no its a VERY bad idea.


Let's look at the balance objectively now first before we jump to conclusions.

* Japan lost 40 divisions, including all their tanks. This is industrially equivalent to at least 80-120 Chinese small infantry divisions if not more. And they risk losing more if they ( as Marine say they will ) try to halt the advance in Korea.
* We already had agreed to have human China ( but now it will just be nationalist China instead of Manchucko-China ).
* Manpower is never an issue for Japan anyways, so all that matters is equipment. China being able to draw on infinite manpower reserves is a non-factor here.
* With China being either annexed or taken over by Manchuria the Axis still would have access to all of the factories there, so they don't really gain factories.
* Due to the quick resolution of the war we will most likely face a Japanese Army with 0 experience and almost no experience or traits on their Generals instead of several armies of maxed out veterans (with +75% combat modifiers) led by skill 7 leaders after all the farming in China. Japan also will have significantly weaker airplane variants due to fast war resolution, meaning they need to put more effort on their fronts vs USA/UK/Commonwealth.

Overall I don't think there will be much difference balance wise with this solution compared to if Japan + Manchucko had won a lightning fast victory over China ( Which I don't think is the strongest move to do either since you miss out on XP ). They gain the Chinese army of ~120 divisions, but this is pretty much identical to what they lost in terms of equipment. They won't lose out of the equipment from a drawn out war although won't gain the XP reward from that either, which feels fairly balanced and OK if you ask me.

They also agreed on whatsapp to not attack the allies until after Barbarossa started, and with human India + human Australia as well as me on UK ( and I can assure you I didn't fortify + Annex Singapore to let them have it for free ) you can count on some harsh resistance from us in East Asia. Japan/China attacking only Soviet is not a possibility since as soon as they do that the allies (including USA) are allowed to attack them, so the question is how much forces they will have to spare after being at war with USA, UK, India and the rest of the commonwealth. Not alot is my hope.

juv95hrn wrote:

I dont know how to solve it though. Maybe a permanent non aggression pact between China and the USSR which would allow for a "normal" historical war? It could still end up in a 1v3 situation, Germany, Romania and Japan. Isnt that bad enough? I dont mean primarily resources, but mostly attention span wise its impossible to play that way. I did it a few times in HOI3 when I had supreme command of the game, and it was almost stressful to a sickening level then.

what other options were discussed? Im sure we can find a solution, just not one that is totally unbalanced please. :-)


If you still are worried we could consider talking about something like a special rule for this game where if Soviet have put X division on the border to China/Manchuria then Japan/China is not allowed to break the NAP or attack them. This requirement could be set low for 1941 but increase as the years go by so that Japan can break the NAP in 1944/45 fairly easily unless you put alot of forces there. ( For example 20 divisions base + 20 more for each year after 1941 ).
Oddball
Posted: Saturday, June 16, 2018 3:46:53 PM
 Corporal


Joined: 7/3/2017
Posts: 30
If you would view it from an axis perspective we are in dire straits if China would still be on the allied side. Japan without a foothold on the Asian mainland having lost the bulk of her forces, is a serious setback for the axis.

The allied powers could pretty much ignore Japan and focus all their efforts against the European axis. Playing Germany I don't think that would be a lot of fun. For balance purposes I think there needs to be a threat to the allies in Asia. In the current state of the game there is not.
juv95hrn
Posted: Sunday, June 17, 2018 6:35:18 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support Medal

Joined: 9/15/2010
Posts: 552
Location: Sweden
Totally agree on all that. I do see the Axis perspective. The campaign is already over without changes.

I just dont see how I would be able to defend from the Caspian Sea to Arkhanglesk alone, when only defending vs. Germany is a challenge. I could do tremendous damage with a dozen chinese cav divisions with a single USSR player 99% focused on defending Poland, etc.

I need to calculate the amount of provinces that China will be albe to defend from, and see what forces I can put in there to stop harassment invasions. I would be prepared to fight an AI puppeted China invasion along with Japan and even Manchuko, that is the normal deal. A china that has 100% focus on their front in the East vs. Raj and USSR is a totally different thing.

EDIT: Its 37 provinces from the border of Afghanistan to the border of Manchucko. ie. Sinkiang and Mongolia. The normal Japanese border of course is the same as always. I´d say I should kiss the Siberian factories goodbye even with a very limited invasion from China. I believe a human India can counter a human China fairly well. I wish there was a way I could give military control of Soviet forces to India so he could keep eyes on that theather. I dont want to have to keep checking on Chinese human lead raiding parties deep in Central Asia while I am fighting German panzers in Poland.


I was toying with the idea of 3 way game with China-USSR as the Communist faction, and obviously no lend-lease, but I guess there are too many unknown factors there....
Oddball
Posted: Monday, June 18, 2018 8:43:17 AM
 Corporal


Joined: 7/3/2017
Posts: 30
I believe a non aggression pact between China and USSR will be necessary. China rushing into central Asia is totally unbalanced.
Alex_brunius
Posted: Monday, June 18, 2018 12:17:38 PM
 Hauptmann

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 9/19/2011
Posts: 355
juv95hrn wrote:

I would be prepared to fight an AI puppeted China invasion along with Japan and even Manchuko, that is the normal deal. A china that has 100% focus on their front in the East vs. Raj and USSR is a totally different thing.


My point was that we already agreed to have a human China, so this shouldn't really be any surprise or anything new. It is clear that with player Manchuko their plan was to inherit most of China to hand it to the player ( they get cores on it ) instead of creating any AI puppet.

juv95hrn wrote:

EDIT: Its 37 provinces from the border of Afghanistan to the border of Manchucko. ie. Sinkiang and Mongolia. The normal Japanese border of course is the same as always. I´d say I should kiss the Siberian factories goodbye even with a very limited invasion from China. I believe a human India can counter a human China fairly well. I wish there was a way I could give military control of Soviet forces to India so he could keep eyes on that theather. I dont want to have to keep checking on Chinese human lead raiding parties deep in Central Asia while I am fighting German panzers in Poland.


I am saying that we wouldn't let this happen and leave you all alone in the allied side. We got lots of players and if Soviet is in dire need at least one coop minimum should be transferred to Soviet.

Either the player on Raj, Australia or Canada could hand over their divisions to UK as expeditionary forces and coop you to handle the Far East front if there is an attack, and we would also need to focus extra on sending Lend Lease in the allies to be able to support Soviet in such a case.

The ships, planes and divisions that we in the allies don't needed to hold back a Japanese/Chinese advance through the Pacific could also in such a case be used to put pressure on the Axis elsewhere, or threaten their homelands directly in the rear in the far east.
AdolfFredrik
Posted: Thursday, June 21, 2018 3:42:25 PM
 Private 1st Class


Joined: 8/21/2017
Posts: 17
I once successfully defended the USSR from german attacks in eastern Europe, spanish/italians in the caucasus, italians in central Asia and japanese in the far east. The allies even won that game, much thanks to Canadas(Alex) heavy tanks that were used in a successful d-day invasion. So everything is possible Smile
Geofactor
Posted: Monday, July 16, 2018 6:50:08 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 3/12/2007
Posts: 721
Location: North Coast USA
What time will the sessions start at if in fact there is a game?

""The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.".....Thomas Jefferson"
anonymous....we are legion...we dont forgive....we dont forget....expect us...
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