Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Members | Log In

Modifications to the Pacific Theatre Options · View
GeneralSherman
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 12:28:26 AM
 2nd Lieutenant
One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 71
Location: Virginia, USA
CBI Theatre Overhaul Proposal

Goals:

-- Make the Southeast Asia Theatre relevant to the Western Allies and Japan

-- Stretch out the China War and Weaken or prevent the Axis Gangbang of Russia

Part I: China

Problem: China falls quickly to Japan, allowing the Japanese to participate in a gang-up on the Soviet Union. Or, strengthening China makes China too strong and Japan loses, unbalancing the game.

Objectives:

-- Make China hard, if not impossible, to completely conquer, at least quickly. China should survive at least a significant percentage of games, and should rarely, if ever, be conquered before 1941.

-- Let the Japanese take control of the coastal and plains regions fairly readily, as historical.

-- Make it almost impossible to flush the Chinese out of the mountains.

-- Do not give the Chinese offensive capability they can use to defeat the Japanese.

-- Provide diplomatic pressure and lesser peace options for the Japanese to give the player incentive to accept less than full conquest.

Comments re: Historical Conditions

The Chinese armies were weak and disorganized. Japanese difficulties with complete conquest of China had more to do with inherent difficulties of conquest and Japanese limitations than with Chinese fighting power.

The Chinese were more concerned with preserving their forces for fighting each other in the Civil War than with fighting the Japanese.

The Soviets were an ever-present threat to the Japanese until the German invasion, and tied up many Japanese troops on the border. Despite their weaknesses, the Soviets had a stronger army than the Japanese.

American aid and perseverance largely propped up the Chinese.

Mechanisms:

-- For the purpose of the modifications, China is divided into two regions: The National Redoubt, and the Conquered Region. The National Redoubt is the mountainous region in southern China that includes Chongqing and Kunming. The Conquered Region is the rest of Nationalist/Warlord China.

-- National Redoubt:
1) higher infrastructure. Events slash the infrastructure in a province if Japan takes it
2) Fortifications in Kunming, Chongqing and a couple other provinces
3) Airbase in Kunming
4) locked garrison divisions

-- Infrastructure level halved in the Conquered Region (10 infra round down to 0), and the border provinces in Manchuria. General reduction of infrastructure will substantially slow movement rates and combat by reducing the effectiveness of both sides. As the effect will be the same on both sides, it should not change the balance or inhibit Japanese conquest of this region. However, when the National Redoubt is hit, Japanese fighting power will take a disadvantage because infra will be higher inside the NR than out.

-- Boost the Chinese economy when it has been reduced to the National Redoubt, and whenever it gets low, to make sure Nationalist China can supply and reinforce its troops, and operate at max efficiency inside the Redoubt. Take form of Lend-Lease aid from the US.

Whenever supply pool gets under 200, +1000
Oil pool below 100, +500
Resources below 100, +500
increase IC in Kunming
increase TC mod
add 200 to manpowerpool

Tune Chinese ai to prioritize reinforcements and upgrades over new units

-- Strip a belt of provinces surrounding the NR of its IC and resources, moving some into coastal regions, and some into the NR. Force the Japanese to conquer and occupy a number of TC-hogging, worthless provinces if they want to completely defeat the Chinese.

-- Perhaps permit the US player to have military control of Nationalist China when in the Redoubt, and the Soviet player to mil control Communist China at appropriate time.

-- High partisanship levels with negligible reduction

Diplomatic Pressures:

Note: I am not sure how much of this section is possible with the modification tools available to us. The ideas are set forth in case they can be done.

-- As the Japanese progress in China, increase negative diplomatic pressure on them, primarily from the USA and USSR, while offering partial success peace options.

-- lower relations across the globe, with US relations and USSR relations plummeting toward -200.

-- reduced trade percentages and increased likelihood of trades being canceled

-- US responses including slider moves, drops in relations, trades canceled, embargo, etc.

-- Total victory over China could lead to war with USA and complete economic embargo by West and democratic neutrals.

-- Offer lesser options with good benefits

-- gain territory
-- influence with China
-- excellent trades with China and more favorable with UK, USA and Netherlands
-- Peace/NAP with China

Resumption of Chinese Civil War

Although not directly related to the Sino-Japanese war, the Chinese Civil War would resume upon peace with Japan.

-- Guerrilla war land doctrines for the ChiCom
-- high partisanship in NatChi provinces
-- possibility of USSR to ally ChiCom, or just provide support, with possibility of USA to ally NatChi if USSR does ally ChiCom, or just provide support if USSR provides support
-- Opportunity for Japan to resume war vs either or both Chinese parties

Part II: Engaging the Western Allies In the Pacific/Asian Theatre

Objective: Recreate the conditions that made necessary the Allies' deviation from the Europe First strategy so that Allied players cannot focus completely on Europe.

Historical Realities:

-- UK, Netherlands, France and the United States all had true economic reliance on SE Asia and/or the East Indies. USA needed rubber and rares from the region. The colonial powers absolutely depended on the region for raw materials. The UK was dependent on India economically, and for manpower. Loss of these regions should, even for USA, have real economic consequences. For UK, they should be dire.

-- Australia and New Zealand had to be protected. These were independent nations, and not UK puppets, and they would not fight for the British in Europe/Africa at the expense of being unprotected against Japan. The only reason their units fought in Europe and fought so effectively was because the United States was willing and able to step in and perform the British duty of protection when Japan threatened.

-- The colonial possessions were politically important in Britain and France. A strategy of completely abandoning those possessions to the Japanese would have been politically risky and resulted in considerable dissent.

-- US public opinion and political leadership were far more prepared to confront the Japanese than to get involved in Europe, and China enjoyed popularity in the US, and with the Roosevelts, far beyond its material importance to US interests.

Mechanisms:

-- Make sure the Asian territories are crucial to the healthy performance of the UK and French (particularly UK) economies, and to the USA economy. USA should be required to buy rares that come from SE Asia for its full industrial production.

-- Make sure UK is dependent on India for manpower.

-- Establish political consequences for loss of colonies, or annexation/puppeting of CW nations.

-- India:
-- India was not as it is portrayed in HOI. Its provinces are not properly national provinces of UK. It was a turbulent, strife-ridden land that was struggling for independence. It was a colonial dominion in the purest sense. It had a strong independence movement. It supplied a lot of the manpower for the British Army. The Indian divisions were a real factor in WW2, and were reinforced from Indian manpower.
-- I would recommend making India non-core provinces, but with the drastically reduced manpower, resource and industry production from non-core provinces in this game, doing so would have a negative impact on the effect we are trying to reach.
-- Can there be partisanship in core provinces? If so, I recommend putting a fairly high percentage in the Indian provinces. Also, events that cause revolts in no UK divisions garrison areas in India. If the level of UK garrison in India as a whole gets too low, India could declare independence.
-- Clearly identify Indian divisions in the British Army at scenario startup, maybe place some skeletons for additional ones in production queue, then those Indian divisions can have their morale and organization reduced if India is lost or declares independence. If India declares independence, could be a chance the Indian divisions revolt.
-- Create events allowing UK to grant India independence. Either as a CW nation, or completely independent. An independent India would be a member of Allies. If India comes into being through revolt, Japan and Germany would have opportunity to ally it.

-- Political Consequences

-- Events giving UK and CW nations dissent and slider moves when UK colonial possessions are lost, or CW nations are conquered.

-- Points accumulate and at a certain point, the government falls and a new one has to be elected. Ministers change and sliders shift.

P.S. I will do all the work of event-writing and file modifying to implement these if approved.
hiensen
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 1:07:34 AM
 Generalleutnant

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalAuthor of 18000th Post

Joined: 1/27/2008
Posts: 1,331
Location: Pau, France
Nice ideas you have there.Good luck to implement all this in game.
cueball
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 9:10:48 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalInspiring Poster '08 AwardAuthor of 10000th Post

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 2,501
Location: Canaduh
Yes, well that is a lot. Overall concept is good -- A little difficult to get the players to play along. For example, when faced with an impossible China, the smart money is not doing it at all or going for some interim peace deal. Or, they can play it through enough time that they are able to figure out a way to gimp it. Might as well just go for human China at start, really – I had thought at one time of making the scenario based on having human China who plays USA on annex, at one time, but that is an idea that has yet to be implemented.

Basically, it sounds a lot like HOI I, where it was very difficult in China. It might make sense to go back to that kind of concept, but I just don't see a US DOW coming up in the future if Japan is stuck in China. I like the ideas about reducing the infrastructure and partisans, and I suppose China could be toughened up more. But then of course SU will always DOW if you allow that. Basically, I don't know how to make it work, though the concept is right.

Another thing, I have always wanted, and in fact asked for the game creators to make it possible to fire "military control" by event so that players could be put in control of countries they are not allied with. It would certainly make the pre-war period more interesting for Russia if they actually got to play the Republican Spanish, against the Italian or German player who would be the Nationalists. But you can't fire that diplomatic feature by event, unfortunately.

About the rest, that sound like actually creating countries in the far east. You could start off with an India that is actually a British Puppet, and an Indonesia that is likewise a Dutch Puppet, then of course the trade sources for raw materials would be controlled from the far east. The way it is now, there are plenty of resources to go around. I actually tightened them up a bit, and you were there to here Geo bitching about it, and also Japan on Monday. I am not sure if you have played Abyss, but it is designed so that all the countries are in trade deficit, and not able to operate all of their IC, so their is a real competition. A lot of people hate this because they can't plan very well and they get all their serials messed up. It would be a hard sell for the HOI crowd.

Then once you have done that you have all kinds of other complexities to do with the game engine and the Diplomatic "friendliness" between countries, and that is a lot of work when you adjust the resource market, on top of the fact that the "peace_time_IC_mod" affects the resources that a country produces. When I cut the Soviet IC with the IC mod, it was really, really hard to balance the world trade system again so that there was enough resources to go around. And there was a lot of bitching about that. Then of course it will go up, and the system unbalances again when both USA and Russia are producing resources at maximum value. Also with fewer resources there will be more temptation for the Allies to screw the Axis on resources, and exploit that.

Fair enough, you say, "the resource deficit was a key reason Japan went to war", and this is true but again its hard to balance that because some player will exploit this feature, and some will not, or not even know how, then how will it balance? It's a lot easier to balance, when you are just using a simply IC production matrix which is stable. Making it unreliable would really make it hard to come up with a clear system for balancing the scenario.

I see so many permutations, and myriad variables that would result in wild distortions that would need endless tweaking.

That said, I think it is a better concept for a simulation.


For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
cueball
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 9:54:47 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalInspiring Poster '08 AwardAuthor of 10000th Post

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 2,501
Location: Canaduh
Quote:
Note: I am not sure how much of this section is possible with the modification tools available to us. The ideas are set forth in case they can be done.

-- As the Japanese progress in China, increase negative diplomatic pressure on them, primarily from the USA and USSR, while offering partial success peace options.

(We do this with the visit from the US ambassador event, which causes dissent.)

-- lower relations across the globe, with US relations and USSR relations plummeting toward -200.

(players dont care about their rep, though it does affect trade)

-- reduced trade percentages and increased likelihood of trades being canceled

( I think there is a drop in relations with each US Ambassador event, which causesSmile Though I could also do something to the AI's themselves.

-- US responses including slider moves, drops in relations, trades canceled, embargo, etc.

(fine, but USA player will use slider moves so he can invade Europe to save Russia, not Japan.)

Total victory over China could lead to war with USA and complete economic embargo by West and democratic neutrals.

-- Offer lesser options with good benefits

(precislely the mod is based on the lesser option with good benefits)

-- gain territory

(we do this)

-- influence with China

(we do this)

-- excellent trades with China and more favorable with UK, USA and Netherlands

(We do this -- excelent rades with China)

-- Peace/NAP with China

(We do this)

Resumption of Chinese Civil War

Although not directly related to the Sino-Japanese war, the Chinese Civil War would resume upon peace with Japan.

(we do this)

-- Guerrilla war land doctrines for the ChiCom
-- high partisanship in NatChi provinces

(I actually wipe out the Chinese army basically at surrender and it has a tough time against Comm China.)

-- possibility of USSR to ally ChiCom, or just provide support, with possibility of USA to ally NatChi if USSR does ally ChiCom, or just provide support if USSR provides support

(we do this)

-- Opportunity for Japan to resume war vs either or both Chinese parties


The only we are not doing really here is involving the USA, on the assumption that if China is defeated Japan becomes its protector, not the USA, as Germany became the "protector" of "Vichy France." The idea is that after it becomes a Japanese protectorate, at some time in the future when the "western imperialists" are dealt with (USA, France, UK are driven out of the Pacific up to India, through New Guinea, and up to Pearl Harbour), that China may then align with the Axis, in their war against SU, because it will want to back the winning side. Preventing this possibility, and the almost certain collapse of the USSR by the creation of a second front, is the primary motivator we are using to pressure the Allies into keeping their hands in in Asia.

Furthermore, keeping the Japanese in check in Asia is now a real possibility for the Allies, since the vanilla model makes it almost impossible to do because of the land power of the Chinese puppet. This is another reason that the China puppet causes early D-day, because in fact other than a delaying action there is nothing that the Allies can really do against the Japan/China steam roller -- they might be able to hold on to India, or Australia, but unlikely they can do both. Now this Japan is no longer capable of taking on multiple major operations, such as the simultaneous invasion of Philippines, New Guinea, India, Indonesia and Singapore, but must eliminate them one at a time, if the Allies bother to defend, which they now have a hope of doing.

In effect, by making Japan weaker, we are really making it more relevant, something which is counter-intuitive, I know, but it seems to hold up in practice.

I think the idea that Japan might resume the war against China is interesting. This all might be tweaked with US war entry being brought up with each step forward into China. As it is I have three surrender events, and they affect US relations and the US does do lend lease for China if it refuses, and perhaps I could get more use out of them. The real problem remains this: USA player will use slider moves so he can invade Europe to save Russia, not Japan. But the issue could be looked into. Perhaps the US and Japan actually negotiate the final status peace agreement, or something along those lines, ala Molotov/Ribbentrop event.

Have you actually played through the event train, as it stand now, as Japan?


For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
GeneralSherman
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 11:01:25 AM
 2nd Lieutenant
One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 71
Location: Virginia, USA
cueball wrote:
The real problem remains this: USA player will use slider moves so he can invade Europe to save Russia, not Japan.

Have you actually played through the event train, as it stand now, as Japan?


I wasn't necessarily talking about interventionism slider. I favor events allowing USA to dow Japan but not join Allies.

And, no, I haven't. I wanted to play Japan in the Sunday game. I'm just offering a systematic approach without regard to what might or might not already be done. That can be figured out in the implementation stage.
Mighty G
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 1:31:02 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 12/3/2007
Posts: 2,218
Location: Land of the Bunyip
Some good ideas.

But this statement is completely and utterly wrong.

"-- Australia and New Zealand had to be protected. These were independent nations, and not UK puppets, and they would not fight for the British in Europe/Africa at the expense of being unprotected against Japan. The only reason their units fought in Europe and fought so effectively was because the United States was willing and able to step in and perform the British duty of protection when Japan threatened."

The reason we had our hands full with the japs in Papua is because we were off fighting europe war. In the initial stages of the caimpaign there wasnt more then 1500 Aussies in Papua holding off the 30,000 strong Japanese Army. because low and behold some 40,000 of our boys were off fighting in Africa and other regions. (with the problem of sounding too cliche, we had only 300+ militia in papua before the call to arms was heard in this region. Most guys who went to fight were not seasoned warriors but just regular guys under milita banners).

To say we wouldnt fight for britain at the expense of being undefended is absurd. If Mother calls we will go running for them, time and time again.


As for India

"-- India:
-- India was not as it is portrayed in HOI. Its provinces are not properly national provinces of UK. It was a turbulent, strife-ridden land that was struggling for independence. It was a colonial dominion in the purest sense. It had a strong independence movement. It supplied a lot of the manpower for the British Army. The Indian divisions were a real factor in WW2, and were reinforced from Indian manpower.
-- I would recommend making India non-core provinces, but with the drastically reduced manpower, resource and industry production from non-core provinces in this game, doing so would have a negative impact on the effect we are trying to reach.
-- Can there be partisanship in core provinces? If so, I recommend putting a fairly high percentage in the Indian provinces. Also, events that cause revolts in no UK divisions garrison areas in India. If the level of UK garrison in India as a whole gets too low, India could declare independence.
-- Clearly identify Indian divisions in the British Army at scenario startup, maybe place some skeletons for additional ones in production queue, then those Indian divisions can have their morale and organization reduced if India is lost or declares independence. If India declares independence, could be a chance the Indian divisions revolt.
-- Create events allowing UK to grant India independence. Either as a CW nation, or completely independent. An independent India would be a member of Allies. If India comes into being through revolt, Japan and Germany would have opportunity to ally it."

The British kicked the shit out of the wahabist in the 1800's, who was going to uprise in india at this point? Im not saying there wasnt alot of turmoil but i hardly see Hindus taking over there country from UK, when UK had been in power for longer then any alive India could remember.

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
George Orwell

Mighty G
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 1:39:30 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 12/3/2007
Posts: 2,218
Location: Land of the Bunyip
The thing with modding this game is for every problem you try to fix you create 10 more.

When the slopes overan Burma they took more prisoners then UK can field in India IN THIS GAME. How do you replicate that? You cant.

I think your idea has merits. But simply nerfing infra and boosting Chinas mountain defences and giving theer build cue some steroids would do the trick.

Interstingly enough is that if China is still alive when US enters the war they get Lend Lease from the US. Maybe you should look into this a bit further.

I like your idea, but it seems liek your trying to implement to much, and creating Mt Everst ou of a mole hill. Just give china some roids and some Scorched earth and problem solved. Anything else will lead to japs not being able to fight against the US.

As it is most jap players fail to have a offesnive caimpaign longer then 12months. And given that in Real Life the Japs suffered there first big strategic defeat only 9 months after pearl harbour shows that they really were not ready for a war of this magnitude.

Ill armoured planes, not enough ships (battlegroups and escorts) to defend there vast naval empire and most importantly useless tanks compared to the fact the Allies were adopting anti-armour tactics based on use of German Armour. Armour of course which was the cornerstone of WW2 along with modern Aviation tactics. The only reason the Allies didnt kick the shit out of the japs earlier is we thought they had more carriers then they actually did. Due tot he range of there unarmoured fighter planes.

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
George Orwell

GeneralSherman
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:05:30 PM
 2nd Lieutenant
One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 71
Location: Virginia, USA
Banders Made Me wrote:
"-- Australia and New Zealand had to be protected. These were independent nations, and not UK puppets, and they would not fight for the British in Europe/Africa at the expense of being unprotected against Japan. The only reason their units fought in Europe and fought so effectively was because the United States was willing and able to step in and perform the British duty of protection when Japan threatened."

The reason we had our hands full with the japs in Papua is because we were off fighting europe war. In the initial stages of the caimpaign there wasnt more then 1500 Aussies in Papua holding off the 30,000 strong Japanese Army. because low and behold some 40,000 of our boys were off fighting in Africa and other regions. (with the problem of sounding too cliche, we had only 300+ militia in papua before the call to arms was heard in this region. Most guys who went to fight were not seasoned warriors but just regular guys under milita banners).


Right, and during that time when the Japanese were approaching Australia, there was diplomatic traffic between UK, Australia and USA, and the only reason Australia did not demand return of its divisions was because the USA committed to defending Australia. Had the USA not been willing or able, there would have been real political trouble between Britain and Australia.
Mighty G
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 2:38:01 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 12/3/2007
Posts: 2,218
Location: Land of the Bunyip
Yes i agree.

They also drew a line in the sand from Brisbane to Perth and decided that if the japs attacked Darwin they would withdraw to this position. Not exactly first priority stuff up there. Lots of nasty terrain.

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
George Orwell

Anders
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 4:00:36 PM
 Generalfeldmarschall

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support MedalBanned in ActionAuthor of 7000th post

Joined: 3/9/2007
Posts: 13,057
Location: Auf das der Adler wieder fliegt
Banders Made Me wrote:
Yes i agree.

They also drew a line in the sand from Brisbane to Perth and decided that if the japs attacked Darwin they would withdraw to this position. Not exactly first priority stuff up there. Lots of nasty terrain.
Imagine SE growing up Japanese LOL

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
hiensen
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 4:19:45 PM
 Generalleutnant

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalAuthor of 18000th Post

Joined: 1/27/2008
Posts: 1,331
Location: Pau, France
Banders Made Me wrote:
The thing with modding this game is for every problem you try to fix you create 10 more.


That's what I mean't when I said good luck to implement all the changes. LOL
I'm following this debate though. :-)
cueball
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 5:02:14 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalInspiring Poster '08 AwardAuthor of 10000th Post

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 2,501
Location: Canaduh
I thought he was Japanese.

A lot of people seem not to realize that the "6 month" string of victories promised by Yamamoto were predicated on his knowledge that there would be basically no serious resistance except at Singapore and Phillipines, and it is to these two place where the bulk of the available army were sent. The general plan, after having siezed a large number of unoccupied terrirtories was to then set up a defence of that territory, and then wait for the counter-attack. Victory was to be determined by the willingness of the US to prosecute a logistically difficult attritional campaign of Island warfare that the Japanese felt the US had no stomach for.

Yamamoto advocated for an immediate pre-emptive strike against the US fleet in the Pacific in order to buy time for the occupations to take place without interference from the US, which everyone in the Japanese command realized would be inevitable sooner or later. In the end they were depending largely on the abilities of their allies to bring the war to a succesful conclusion in Russia, and then against the UK, at which point it was felt Japan would do better at the post war negotiating table by holding on to whatever it is that they had managed to sieze during the initial attack.

At no point did anyone in the Japanese high command every actually consider that they would be able to defeat the US on military grounds, and victory was predicated on a being in the right "political" position when final status negotiations took place. They certainly intended to capture the islands surrounding Australia toward the end of suffocating it economincally, but basically any warplanning about invading Australia was really about "theoreticals" as far as the Japanese were concerned.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Stalins Elite
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 5:19:51 PM
 Pilus prior

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 4/16/2007
Posts: 1,000
Location: Under your mum's bed!!!
OK. A few things I would like to point out.

Approximately 1500 irregular, untrained and ill equipped Australian volonteers fought an extremely successful fighting withdrawl along the Kokoda trail in Papua against a Japanese force of approximately 15000-30000 strong. One of Japans biggest defeats of the Pacific war IMHO.

America didn't really come to Australia to save our bacon so to speak, we were more of a staging point for launching operations. But yes, if America or Britain didn't send some sought of troop reinforcement then we would have withdrawn our troops from the African and Greek/Crete theaters.

The only reason Russia kept so many troops on the Jap/Munchu border was purely because they feared a Japanese invasion of Siberia. Had it not been for a Japanese double agent, then the Russian force would probabally have remained in Siberia instead of being shipped to the German front. So in a sense, they both feared being back stabbed by each other.

Because Japan was ill equipped to successfully fight the Chinese in the mountainous regions of they're hinterland. Japan had a staggering 2-4 million troops IIRC, tied up in China for the duration of time from 1937 (Marco Polo bridge incident/out break of hostilities), until they're final surrender in 1945.

America's liberation of the Phillipines in 1943/44 put Japan in a severe predicament. Japan was a naval based empire that relied on massive convoys covering thousands of miles. The loss of the Phillipines successfully cut Japans empire in half. Now being in a situation were they're convoys carrying valuable oil and rare material reserves from the Dutch East Indies and Indo-China to the mainland were at the mercy of allied bombing and they were virtually cut off. Without those resources, wether America had of dropped the A-bombs in 45 or not. Japan would still have lost the war as they're industry would have shut down due to lack of raw resources needed to run it and they're economy would have gone into melt down.

So to summarize all that. Had Japan been successful in it's invasion attempt of Papua, then an eventual invasion of Australia would have commenced. Had that been successful, then America would not have had a staging point were they could mass hundreds of ships, planes and thousands of troops. If Russia had not been informed that Japan had no intentions of war against them. Then 15 million Ruski's would have remained in Siberia instead of being redeployed to the German front, resulting in an eventual defeat of Russia at the hands of German forces. Had America not have re-taken the Phillipines, then Japan would have held on, and perhaps even countered and regained the upper hand. Also if Japan had of been successful with acheiving hegemony over China. That would have been anothet 2-4 million troops free to participate in an offensive into Burma/India. Also that would have been more troops able to be deployed to the defense of the Phillipines ect ect. There are alot of what if scenario's that we could take the next 100 thread pages debating. But that is the beauty of HOI. We have the ability to explore the possibilities of those what if scenario's. The vanilla scenario is fine, you just need a good set of balanced rules to play by in MP. SE.

Admiral Kutzenov - The Cold War lives.



cueball
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 7:52:42 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalInspiring Poster '08 AwardAuthor of 10000th Post

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 2,501
Location: Canaduh
I don't agree that the Japanese ever seriously contemplated including direct conquest of Australia as part of their war plan. The terms of the victory they considered plausible was based on the success of their Allies in Europe. Yes they intended to put Australia in the same position that Japan faced when the Phillipines was retaken by taking the surrounding Islands, but if you actually look at the decision making process of the Japanese Liason Conference (as opposed to the numerous accounts which are written entirely from the Allied perspective) their entire game plan was based on a limited war, not total war and conquest. As far as Papua was concerned the objective was to capture it, then hunker down, make a counter attack as costly as possible, and then hope that their allies in Europe had better fortunes.

Victor Sorge would be wrong when he said that the Japanese had no intentions against them. They most certainly did. In fact, the first order of business was deciding what the best course of action was, and it was decided that an attack against Russia would be unfeasible, and also entirely pointless. Stalin never listened to spies anyway, Victor Sorge being one of the numerous spies that the Soviet Union had around the world who warned Stalin of the pending German invasion of 1941 -- he was ignored. Moreso, the Russians were not so beholden to their Siberian properties, so as not to abandon them to a possible stab in the back by the Japanese. The important issue was the Russian and Slavic heartland, and the Russians simply would never have risked that just to hold onto Valdivostock. In the worst case they would have made a fighting retreat all the way back to Irkutsk had the Japanese seriously pressed the issue.

Having dealt with Germans, they would have then made an about face and dealt with the Japanese. This is indeed what happened.

Lets not forget that Sherman Miles estimate of the strength of the Japanese army in the Kwantung district in October 1941, the time at which the Russians began to send their Siberian army west was only 40 divisions or so. A clear indicator that the Japanese had no real intention of making an effort in Siberia, particularly not in winter. Shortly after that point they were engaged against the US, and so further redeployment was possible.

There was nothing in Soviet Siberia worth taking: that was the strategic reality.The Soviet and Japanese decision to conclude a neutrality pact was entirely predicated on the fact that both sides had nothing to gain by fighting it out in the Siberia, this would only advantage others.

Banders Made Me wrote:
The thing with modding this game is for every problem you try to fix you create 10 more.


It's true, and this is why its best to try and keep things simple.

As for developing game themes its really a matter of which fiction you choose, and as SE says part of the beauty of the system. Paradox chose one where China could be defeated by Japan, and then puppeted, and I chose one where this was not possible, but China comes under the influence of Japan, but is not its willing servant. I guess another variant could be developed where Japan defeats China and then there is peace, but China remains a US proxy that becomes activated when the US joins the war.

Peace seems to be the only simple way of simulating the deadlock that took place in China, and the only other I could think of was putting in an NAP while countries are at war, but this is a little weird, and has strange consequences

Perhaps the event train could be developed with each of these options.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
GeneralSherman
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 8:21:44 PM
 2nd Lieutenant
One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 71
Location: Virginia, USA
The heart of my proposal is a way to slow the Japanese down enough that the war lasts at least until USSR is a war threat, forcing them to garrison the Manchuria border, drawing troops away from the Chinese front and then making it even harder to conquer, and then hopefully to where the Japanese have to prepare for war with the Allies. Maybe, just maybe, then China can survive until 1941 when the US entry really limits what Japan can devote to its conquest. Maybe then China survives the war without being conquered. Maybe it won't succeed, but maybe it will.
cueball
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 8:24:33 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalInspiring Poster '08 AwardAuthor of 10000th Post

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 2,501
Location: Canaduh
Well yes, but what if it does not succeed, then what happens?

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
GeneralSherman
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 8:32:14 PM
 2nd Lieutenant
One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 71
Location: Virginia, USA
cueball wrote:
Well yes, but what if it does not succeed, then what happens?


Then I think your diplomatic conclusion to the conquest makes a lot of sense.
cueball
Posted: Monday, September 15, 2008 8:47:16 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalInspiring Poster '08 AwardAuthor of 10000th Post

Joined: 11/30/2007
Posts: 2,501
Location: Canaduh
Well, what I am thinking is that you might actually have three sequential surrender events for China (actually these already exist) and they radically alter the post war political terrain. So, in the first case, we will call this the "historical case" for the lack of a better word, Japan gets less, but also USA gets less interventionism sliders, and China becomes a US ally, which then is activated by war with between Japan and the USA -- this peace agreement simulates the deadlock of 1939 through 41. Then a second one where China becomes a Japanese protectorate, and follows more or less along the lines I have now, and third one where China becomes a proper Japanese puppet, with the intention of prosecuting its war against SU in the Axis gangbang. In this last, US war entry is brought up substantially, and USSR goes up to war footing immediatly.

Ultimately it would be nice to tie these event trains into the peace agreements that the AI generates naturally.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by Yet Another Forum.net version 1.9.0 (NET v2.0) - 10/10/2006
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.
Copyright © 2005-2007 Daniel "Lord Ederon" Scibrany. All rights reserved.