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King of Men
Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 4:07:52 PM
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These are suggested rules for discussion, not yet final.

Time and place

Nation Shall Rise Against Nation occurs at 1000 (10 am) Eastern Standard Time; 1500 (3 pm) Greenwich Mean Time; 1600 (4pm) Central European Time; on Saturdays. The master time is the CET time. There is a small ingame reward, currently 10 manpower, for being on time. Five minutes after the hour, the game begins regardless of who is present; anyone not there by that time must wait for the first rehost. In practice we do not enforce this rule with the iron hand of utter formalism, but it remains an ideal to which we aspire. We use HoI2:Arma, latest Beta patch, checksum PHVR.

General Rules

  • The game will continue if at least two players are present and one of them can host. Exceptions may be made for Christmas weekends and such; these will be agreed to beforehand in the forums.
  • Most important rule: No flaming, OOC insults, or general asshattery.
  • No goddamn swearing, either in effing game chat, sodding TeamSpeak, or bloody forum posts. This rule is enforced with pedantic, zero-tolerance attention to fucking detail.
  • Treaties of non-aggression, alliance, etc, are only enforced by the honour of the players. However, where an exchange is agreed to that would, in reality, be instantaneous, but which requires more than one step due to game mechanics, it must be honoured. For example, "Sell me province X and I will sell you province Y".
  • No exploiting lag.
  • You may declare war upon anyone at any time unless previously forbidden by the GM (this should only be the case in the event of a country shifting players, being reconstructed from AI errors, etc.).
  • It is forbidden to attack a player who is currently AI. If attacked, you should not take more than five provinces in the peace treaty. A player who has been away for three consecutive weeks is fair game, however. Enforcement of the "five provinces" bit becomes progressively weaker as the player's absences increase, even if the three consecutive weeks clause is never invoked.

    Guidelines for peace

    These are guidelines and not hard rules; they are offered as suggestions to make the game pleasant.
  • It is suggested that peace negotiations should be done in chat, rather than by the ingame diplomacy methods. A nation which is losing a war may initiate peace talks by asking what their foes are demanding, eg "Ok, ok, what are your terms?" or alternatively one may inquire if an opponent is ready to negotiate: "Do you want to talk yet?" In either case a response is strongly suggested; it is very rude not to respond to a request for negotiations, particularly if an enemy is asking for terms.

    House rules

    All rules will be enforced by the iron hand of the GM. Sanctions available to the GM include, but are not limited to: verbal warnings, editing out the results of forbidden actions, removing resources or units, editing in dissent or nationalism, and outright bans from the game. We got to 1836 without any of this, let's go for another 20 years.

    The most important rule is to be polite, gentle of speech, and positively courteous at all times. Even when you are slipping the dagger into unmentionable places, or someone is doing the same to you. In particular, do not swear at people. This applies both to the game and the forum thread. Calling someone other than the GM an 'inveterate backstabber' is allowed, however, especially if done in-character in an AAR. Calling the GM an 'inveterate backstabber' is not forbidden, as such, but make sure your back is to a wall which you trust to have no secret passages in it. Do not taunt others for misfortune; it will come back to haunt you, and anyway it's no fun.

    Game balance, playability, and edits.

    The current GM is King of Men. His word is law when he posts in red. In his absence, deputy GM Danomite will stand in for him as temporary GM, and Gollevainen is promoted to deputy GM. The deputy GM acts as a check on the GM, and makes rulings in his absence.

  • It is forbidden to load as other nations in SP, or otherwise use SP to find hidden information.
  • If a player nation is satellited, it must remain a satellite for at least three years.
  • You may trade blueprints freely.
  • Wars must be declared in public chat *before* the button is pushed. This must be done in the form "X is declaring war on Y", to avoid misunderstandings. Only the player who will push the button needs to give warning; allies may join or not, but warnings are not required of them.
  • You may not pause to deploy units. You may not deploy to captured provinces.
  • Air and naval bases must be built through the province interface, not by the general production queue, except for the first level of air bases in a province - representing prefab buildings and dirt runways.
  • You may not strategically redeploy a unit that is next to an enemy unit.
  • We will use the MonXII mod, as modified by Dano.
  • Do not use the exploit of surrounding an enemy capital and not taking it.

    Ontimes and AAR rewards

    The ontime reward is 10 manpower.

    There is a reward for writing an AAR of at least 500 words, posted at least 12 hours before game time (or by the "feeling lucky" rule); choose one of the following:

  • 1000 cash
  • 2500 rares
  • 2500 oil
  • 5000 metal
  • 10000 energy.
  • 50 manpower.

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
  • danomite
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:05:13 PM
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    King of Men wrote:


    No goddamn swearing, either in game chat, TeamSpeak, or bloody forum posts. This rule is enforced with pedantic, zero-tolerance attention to fucking detail.

    1$ fine to Norway! Someone has to watch the watchmen...


    Also if Free blueprint trading is allowed I am for reducing the bonus blueprints give to tech speed by the simple fact that everyone will have all the blueprints very very quickly.
    If the speed bonus is decreased then I see no problem with blueprint reward, however maybe increase resource bonus abit 2500 does not last very long in any scenario.

    It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
    If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
    because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
    Gollevainen
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:10:59 PM
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    Why we need a mod and what this mod mentioned by anders change in the game?



    Irsh Faq wrote:
    I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
    danomite
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:17:22 PM
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    Gollevainen wrote:
    Why we need a mod and what this mod mentioned by anders change in the game?


    I agree with the general principle of the mod anders suggested which version however is still up to debate, I suggest an older version that makes less drastic changes. (monX instead of monXI or XII whatever it is) (i volunteer to make monX compatible with latest patch if need be)

    Any word on overseas manpower change? Even if only by a bit, its important for Indonesia, Japan and Norway sort helps a great deal as built in penalty is pretty harsh for such nations.

    Another question is anyone up for adding more straits to the game? there's a few places that don't have that sorta seem silly not to while other more distant places do have them.

    VP changes to be more even.

    It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
    If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
    because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
    Carillons
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:26:08 PM
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    King of Men wrote:

  • No goddamn swearing, either in game chat, TeamSpeak, or bloody forum posts. This rule is enforced with pedantic, zero-tolerance attention to fucking detail.


  • Do you now have to fine yourself? Wink

    King of Men wrote:

    We got to 1836 without any of this, let's go for another 20 years.


    And don't you mean 1936?
    Varyar
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:29:37 PM
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    Mods or no mods, please make a decision ASAP so us new to it can have some practice time before we actually convert. Either that or a one week "pause" after the final vicky session.

    danomite wrote:
    I agree with the general principle of the mod anders suggested which version however is still up to debate, I suggest an older version that makes less drastic changes. (monX instead of monXI or XII whatever it is) (i volunteer to make monX compatible with latest patch if need be)

    What does this mod do?
    Carillons
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:30:28 PM
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    Damn, Danomite got there first, ahh well.

    Also, could we use one of the Monday mods? Anders seems convincing when he advocates for them.
    Gollevainen
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:40:32 PM
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    I'm a rocker, death to mods!!!!!



    Irsh Faq wrote:
    I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
    danomite
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:41:15 PM
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    http://forums.ederon.net/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1512
    Change Log


    I'd suggest a variant of this, reverting a few values to the MonX instead of MonXI values.


    Varyar wrote:
    Either that or a one week "pause" after the final vicky session.




    I'd suggest a pause anyways to give abit more time for testing with a mod setup we agree to ASAP.

    It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
    If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
    because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
    King of Men
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 5:44:55 PM
     Legatus legionis

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    Carillons wrote:
    And don't you mean 1936?


    No. I remind you of l'affaire mobilisatione Chinoise.

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
    Anders
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:34:44 PM
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    Here's a general rule almost everyone have used in all the years I played HOI2/DD/DDA etc:
    *No Strategic Redeploying away from the frontline/ border with a antion you are at war with.
    OR
    *No SRing away with a unit that is next to an enemy unit.

    Both these rules are rather easy to enforce.


    "Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

    King of Men wrote:
    Anders is correct.

    Fivoin wrote:
    Yeah, Anders is right.

    baronbowden wrote:
    I would tend to agree with Anders.

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    The Professor
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:46:45 PM
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    Where can we find the early mods for monday game?

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    Anders
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:49:15 PM
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    The Professor wrote:
    Where can we find the early mods for monday game?
    I'm sure you can find it several places in the conversion thread, but to save everyone the bother:
    Mon X: http://forums.ederon.net/default.aspx?g=posts&t=989
    Mon XI: http://forums.ederon.net/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1512
    Note that because we were disallowing alliances, and discouraging puppets, the cost of certain diplomatic actions in Monday XI are quite high.

    "Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

    King of Men wrote:
    Anders is correct.

    Fivoin wrote:
    Yeah, Anders is right.

    baronbowden wrote:
    I would tend to agree with Anders.

    Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

    I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
    The Professor
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:50:49 PM
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    Are these Monday Game X changes?

    building_costs.txt
    Code:

    coastalfort = {
        cost        = 4
        buildtime     = 750 #E 1000  ;  effect of fort is lowered, so is price
        manpower    = 0.5 #E 0  ;  forts should cost some manpower, to operate them properly, you need some men
        size        = 1
    }
    landfort = {
        cost        = 5
        buildtime     = 900 #E 1200  ;  same as coastal
        manpower    = 0.5 #E 0  ;  same as coastal
        size        = 1
    }
    infra = {
        cost        = 1
        buildtime     = 200 #E 360  ;  aprox. halved time since we halved effect to allow more flexibility
        manpower    = 0
        size        = 0.05 #E 0.1  ;  halved effect to allow more flexibility
    }


    diplo_costs.txt
    Code:

    diplomacy = {
    # Influence Nation
        -200 #E -100  ;  this should be more expensive
    # Ask for Military Access
        -500 #E -150  ;  military access should be expensive thing to arrange
    # Send Expeditionary Force
        -50 #E 0  ;  sending expeditionary forces should cost money
    # Guarantee Independence
        -1000 #E -30  ;  GOIs in hoi2 are disputable, so price is risen considerably
    # Offer Non-Aggression Pact
        -500 #E -100  ;  NAP should be real commitment
    # Cancel Non-Aggression Pact
        -500 #E -100  ;  same with breaking it
    # Release Puppet
        -1000 #E -20  ;  if we wanna prevent puppet dances, this is one way. it still allows people to have puppets
    }


    misc.txt
    Code:

    economy = {
    # IC to TC ratio
        1.4 #E 1.5  ;  less TC, less units operational = tougher game
    # IC to Supplies ratio
        3.0 #E 4.0  ;  less supplies per IC means less IC for production = less units
    # IC to Money Ratio
        0.15 #E 0.2  ; less money per IC means less IC for production = less units
    # Max Gearing Bonus ( never lower than value * build time )
        0.50 #E 0.65  ;  same story - lower gearing =  less units
    # Gearing Bonus Increment ( lessening of build time per successive build, down to Max Gearing Bonus )
        0.03 #0.05  ;  gearing should increase more slowly
    # TC Load from bases in queue
        500.0 #E 100.0  ;  this should eliminate behavior when people keep undeployed bases in SR pool
    # Trickle-back factor for manpower from losses in battle. (ie, how many are just wounded.)
        0.3 #E 0.35  ;  less MP should return from battles to make it little more scarce
    # Reinforcement Manpower Cost Factor
        0.9 #E 0.8  ;  reinforcements costing more MP means less MP for unit building
    # Upgrade cost    
        0.7 #E 0.5  ;  if upgrades cost more, we'll see more generations of untis on the battlefied side by side, it'll also contribute to less units overall too
    # Monthly Nationalism reduction
        0.03 #E 0.05  ;  let those nationalist sentiments be stronger to make occupying country pay little more
    }

    combat = {
    # Combat Modifier: Air Exceeding Max Command Limit Mod
        -0.40 #E -0.25  ;  this should somewhat prevent or at least penalize air superstacks
    # Combat Modifier: Land Fort Multiplier ( value * fort level)
        -0.04 #E -0.09  ;  less effect from land fort should eliminate need for rules limiting their production (hiensen's rules limit it to 5, this is implementation of that rule)
    # Combat Modifier: Coastal Fort Multiplier ( value * fort level)
        -0.05 #E -0.09  ;  same as land forts
    # Combat Modifier: Total Air Overstacking Mod for each division above two.
        -0.05 #E -0.02  ;  let's make air overstacking more severe
    # Air Leader Command Limit (nr of divisions), Rank 0 (highest)
        16 #E 24  ;  lower command limit = less aerial mess
    # Air Leader Command Limit (nr of divisions), Rank 1
        8 #E 16  ;  see above
    # Air Leader Command Limit (nr of divisions), Rank 2
        4 #E 8  ;  see above
    # Air Leader Command Limit (nr of divisions), Rank 3 (lowest)
        2 #E 2  ;  see above
    # Delay in hours after a combat ends before new orders can be given.    
        36 #E 24  ;  make planning little more importnat, still not much beyond vanilla
    # Maximum sizes of air-stacks
        8 #E 4  ;  8 airstack seems to be just right
    #CHANCE TO GET TERRAIN TRAIT
        1500 #E 1200  ;  we want to see more traits
    #CHANCE TO GET EVENT TRAIT
        1500 #E 1200  ;  same
    #Chance of leaders dying while in combat per day
        0.0005 #E 0.0003  ;  increased chance of leader dying in battle, still fairly low
    #_CV_AIR_ORG_DMG_MODIFYER1_ Increasing this value will increase the org dmg air units takes
        27.0 #E 25.0  ;  make CVs tad better against regular air
    #_CV_AIR_STR_DMG_MODIFYER_ Increasing this value will increase the str dmg air units takes
        0.25 #E 0.2  ;  see above
    }

    research = {
    # Pre-Historical Date Mod (value * days prior to historical date. Lower limit for the total is -0.9. )
        -0.0014 #E -0.00125  ;  make ahead of time research more difficult
    # Mean number of "invention" events occuring per year
        8 #E 4  ;  more randomness to have ability to keep the pace while having limited alliances
    }


    spy_costs.txt
    Code:

    diplomacy = {
    #    _HOID_SPY_COUNTER_ESPIONAGE_,
    65 #E 50  ;  counter espionage should be more expensive

    #    _HOID_SPY_COUNTER_ESPIONAGE_CHANCE,
    5 #E 15  ;  chance of success of this mission is lower to make spying possible - no more clean backyard
    }



    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    The Professor
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:51:52 PM
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    Anders wrote:
    I'm sure you can find it several places in the conversion thread, but to save everyone the bother:
    Mon X: http://forums.ederon.net/default.aspx?g=posts&t=989
    Mon XI: http://forums.ederon.net/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1512
    Note that because we were disallowing alliances, and discouraging puppets, the cost of certain diplomatic actions in Monday XI are quite high.


    Aha.

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    Varyar
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 7:52:18 PM
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    danomite wrote:
    http://forums.ederon.net/default.aspx?g=posts&t=1512
    Change Log


    I'd suggest a variant of this, reverting a few values to the MonX instead of MonXI values.

    MonX sounds better than XI, by the looks of it...
    King of Men
    Posted: Monday, October 26, 2009 8:11:34 PM
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    Ok, Dano, I'm putting you in charge of the mod. Proceed as suggested: Base on MonXII with some values reverted to X. You can change the overseas manpower if you like, the vanilla ones are intended to nerf British India and don't really make sense for the overseas empires in our game. And sure, put in some straits if you want. See if you can have it ready by Wednesday, eh?

    Quote:
    No SRing away with a unit that is next to an enemy unit.


    Sounds good.

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
    danomite
    Posted: Tuesday, October 27, 2009 12:14:25 AM
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    King of Men wrote:
    Ok, Dano, I'm putting you in charge of the mod. Proceed as suggested: Base on MonXII with some values reverted to X. You can change the overseas manpower if you like, the vanilla ones are intended to nerf British India and don't really make sense for the overseas empires in our game. And sure, put in some straits if you want. See if you can have it ready by Wednesday, eh?


    Sure thing I got a break tomorrow in between classes, copying Doomsday over now to my laptop.

    It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
    If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
    because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
    danomite
    Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:01:13 PM
     Tribunus laticlavius

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    Right so I think I've fixed the overseas manpower issue (still less than normal however)

    straits I've come into the issue of convoys... how far is far enough to need convoys instead of straits? Paradox seemed fairly arbitrary in making them from what I can see.

    I've connected alot of nearby islands, thats a no brainer, silly for some islands to be connected and not others in similar situations.
    What about major straits such as the Islands connecting Japan to Russia? those are mighty close but not connected... should there be a way for him to get to the mainland without needing convoys?
    Next up is Gibraltar... i wana... but... (insert french comment here)
    I have added 2 more connections to Saudi Arabia one to Africa one to Persia

    still a few more ideas and islands to connect ect.

    It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
    If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
    because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
    jodokus
    Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:12:36 PM
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    Mm....I've not asked any straits between my land and Africa. Those ougtha not limit my movments outfrom what they are in currently in Vicky.

    Edzako
    Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:23:01 PM
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    These straits exists in regular HoI2 game, it's not edited.

    Stand upright, speak thy thoughts, declare The truth thou hast, that all may share; Be bold, proclaim it everywhere: They only live who dare.
    danomite
    Posted: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 11:04:51 PM
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    jodokus wrote:
    Mm....I've not asked any straits between my land and Africa. Those ought not limit my movements out from what they are in currently in Vicky.
    Adding straits where are none but should be, would not limit your movements. They add possibilities in both directions, arguably add a degree of flexibility for Georgia to move around.

    It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
    If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
    because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
    King of Men
    Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2009 12:15:29 AM
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    On a different subject: I seem to recall that some games have rules against using subs in stacks of more than three, because they're unbalanced for fleet combat. Is that still true, and do we need such a rule?

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    Foelsgaard
    Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2009 12:18:08 AM
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    King of Men wrote:
    On a different subject: I seem to recall that some games have rules against using subs in stacks of more than three, because they're unbalanced for fleet combat. Is that still true, and do we need such a rule?


    I read on the wiki that Armageddon nerfed subs alot. Could have been that they weren't nerfed enough though. Holy
    Anders
    Posted: Thursday, October 29, 2009 10:44:36 AM
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    King of Men wrote:
    On a different subject: I seem to recall that some games have rules against using subs in stacks of more than three, because they're unbalanced for fleet combat. Is that still true, and do we need such a rule?
    Subs are pretty well balanced out now. After the 1.3 betapatch they aren't as useless vs surface navies as they were, and the Cruzerg fleet and CVL-teleport have been "fixed" as well. CAS is no longer the unit killer it used to be either.
    Forget everything you thought you knew about unit balancing issues before Armageddon came along.

    You might consider, for realism's sake, to ban deploying more than one Airbase/navalbase from deployment queue to any province, requiring the next to be built in the province. Instant level 10 bases is rather silly, and does give the attacker quite an advantage.


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    King of Men wrote:
    Anders is correct.

    Fivoin wrote:
    Yeah, Anders is right.

    baronbowden wrote:
    I would tend to agree with Anders.

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