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The Professor
Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:02:33 PM
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Issues to be discussed.

1. Determining if it is possible to further restrict the use of nuclear weapons should the war continue and reaffirm the nuclear treaty, with only 1 nuke launched but with 60 norwegian divisions destroyed as the tradeoff I feel this is still salvagable.

2. Determining if the Allies are willing to discuss the terms of their surrender now that war is clearly swinging against them, granted they have shown considerable resourcefulness and grit despite phenominally stunning setbacks and losses that you keep bouncing back from but with the Russian front finally moving and with your inability to defend and man it at this point in time I don't feel that any result is likely except for Germany being pushed back to the Vistula.

2a) As such the terms as I understand it assuming the Allies are willing to deal is:

i) the remainder of Spain ceded to Britannia.
ii) Italy either made independent of given to either Japan or Britanny.
iii) the Russo-German border moved so that Konigsberg (East Prussia) and the rough historical (1945 Sov borders) bordering from Konigsberg extending down south to Romania ceded to Russia.
iv) significant resource reverses to be edited from Norway and Italy to Japan.

My allies are of course free to pitch in with the discussions if I am missing anything either with article 1 or 2.


Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Gollevainen
Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:15:42 PM
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Well From my observations and perspective as a sub, The allies did rather well and are pushing the enemy in all fronts.
Not to mention the cloud of Italian missles in the air waiting wheter Varayar wants to call them home or not...Smile



Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
OrangeYoshi
Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:40:50 PM
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From my observations and perspective as a sub, I was very surprised when the first surge was pushed back, and then even more surprised when the second surge that had captured Paris was pushed back.
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2010 9:58:36 PM
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Points of interest: The Japanese carriers in the North Sea have a dissent malus of 9%; it follows that Japanese dissent is 18%. The revolt risk in China is not nice.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Gollevainen
Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2010 10:22:49 PM
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Quote:
From my observations and perspective as a sub, I was very surprised when the first surge was pushed back, and then even more surprised when the second surge that had captured Paris was pushed back.


just highligths that no giving up after the intial setbackThumbs Up



Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
The Professor
Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2010 10:30:23 PM
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Speaking of it may be time to transfer most of those cores over to Shanxi.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
The Professor
Posted: Saturday, February 20, 2010 10:32:17 PM
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Gollevainen wrote:
Well From my observations and perspective as a sub, The allies did rather well and are pushing the enemy in all fronts.
Not to mention the cloud of Italian missles in the air waiting wheter Varayar wants to call them home or not...Smile


The initial German push has been checked and is being pushed back as the session ended, you also only really managed to contain the Japanese surge only after it destroyed a very large number of divisions, and the Norwegian invasion was utterly destroyed and Italy is now firly in our grasp.

It stands to reason is that the war is hardly in your favor.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
King of Men
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:09:10 AM
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Well. Let me point out that while nuclear weapons are not necessarily a war winner, we can certainly make it so both sides lose and some uncommitted power with the world's largest army steps in to pick up the pieces. Smile

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Carillons
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 5:38:10 AM
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The Professor wrote:
The initial German push has been checked and is being pushed back as the session ended, you also only really managed to contain the Japanese surge only after it destroyed a very large number of divisions, and the Norwegian invasion was utterly destroyed and Italy is now firly in our grasp.

It stands to reason is that the war is hardly in your favor.


It has been slowed, but not checked yet. I wouldn't get ahead of yourself and count your chickens before they hatch.
danomite
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 8:41:16 AM
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As a outside observer, I must say neither side really looks likes it has too much of an advantage. While on the land Japans alliance is doing well, I do believe there are like what 20 some odd nukes heading in his direction, that should pretty much take him out of the war... And thus could be turned around. I think it just come down to how committed either side is.

It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
Edzako
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:41:24 AM
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King of Men wrote:
Well. Let me point out that while nuclear weapons are not necessarily a war winner, we can certainly make it so both sides lose and some uncommitted power with the world's largest army steps in to pick up the pieces. Smile


Posts like this shows attitude because of which I passed my perm slot to my brother.

It was only matter of time when people start to fall out of this game, and understandable that they want to go with boom.

Nuclear weapons, in this case, allows to do just that. Problem is, that unlike in real world, people who use those weapons don't really care about retribution, as they have, more or less, forfeited their hopes to win.

And as soon as nukes start flying there will be only one winner - the one who isn't participating in "exchange".

And suddenly those weapons are not bargain chips, but mean to completely screw up your opponent.

Georgia was perfect example, but they chose (didn't have means?) not to do so.

As I was quite attached to my little Empire, I decided I would rather not see it annihilated by nuclear fire every time I won a war against opponent armed with nuclear weapons.

So Jakalo took over. As he haven't played this game nearly as long as rest of you guys he will fire his rockets and keep on fighting with forces he have/ragequit/pass what has left to another player. It won't matter him nearly as much as people who has played this game for nearly 2 years. Varyar will be left with 0 manpower, 1,2 years constant dissident reductions, assuming his allies will supply his troops and wrecked TC.



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E. Jünger
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:30:45 PM
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King of Men wrote:
Well. Let me point out that while nuclear weapons are not necessarily a war winner, we can certainly make it so both sides lose and some uncommitted power with the world's largest army steps in to pick up the pieces. Smile


Reminds me of an annoying kid in elementary school who had a firm policy of striking first, and then when you raised your fist for the equaliser he yelled that fighting was not allowed in the school. The insight is correct, but a tad late.

Let America know and ponder on this: there is something more frightening than Cain killing Abel, and that is Danomite killing Falador
Anders
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:31:45 PM
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Edzako wrote:
[Peacenik Hippie Commie sentimentalism]

Let the Eagle Soar!


"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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Foelsgaard
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 1:54:21 PM
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Jakalo is by far the best player this war.

And yes, nuclear weapons probably mean that some older players will be replaced with newer ones in the last years. If this is an unforseen consequence of having nukes allowed, then so be it. However, contrary to popular belief, the two years spent playing are not wasted if you do not win the game and/or if your country is reduced to a nuclear wasteland (unless of course you did not actually enjoy playing the game but only wanted to win).

One thing that has been annoying me a great deal is the incessant whining about nukes since we began the HoI-segment and the incessant whining about "attitudes" and "balance of power" ever since I joined the game.

Making rules (written or not) against attitudes/styles of playing is IMHO not a path we want to go down. Making rules against nukes should have been done a looong time ago.

Also, while I don't have nukes and can't be a part of the upcoming nuclear exchange (except on the receiving end), this "Come on, don't use nukes if you lose" sounds very much like "Bend over and take it" in my ears.
E. Jünger
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:11:50 PM
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Foelsgaard wrote:
Jakalo is by far the best player this war.

And yes, nuclear weapons probably mean that some older players will be replaced with newer ones in the last years. If this is an unforseen consequence of having nukes allowed, then so be it. However, contrary to popular belief, the two years spent playing are not wasted if you do not win the game and/or if your country is reduced to a nuclear wasteland (unless of course you did not actually enjoy playing the game but only wanted to win).

One thing that has been annoying me a great deal is the incessant whining about nukes since we began the HoI-segment and the incessant whining about "attitudes" and "balance of power" ever since I joined the game.

Making rules (written or not) against attitudes/styles of playing is IMHO not a path we want to go down. Making rules against nukes should have been done a looong time ago.

Also, while I don't have nukes and can't be a part of the upcoming nuclear exchange (except on the receiving end), this "Come on, don't use nukes if you lose" sounds very much like "Bend over and take it" in my ears.


I agree. If nukes aren't there to be used, either as weapons, or as realistic deterrents, then what use are they? A colossal waste of IC and research. This is postmodern Comedy. The tragedy has already taken place, the question is what happens next. The questions of the merits of nuclear weapons should perhaps be thought over, well in advance of the next iteratin of MP HOI, but for now, things are what they are.

Let America know and ponder on this: there is something more frightening than Cain killing Abel, and that is Danomite killing Falador
Foelsgaard
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 2:14:22 PM
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E. Jünger wrote:
I agree. If nukes aren't there to be used, either as weapons, or as realistic deterrents, then what use are they? A colossal waste of IC and research. This is postmodern Comedy. The tragedy has already taken place, the question is what happens next. The questions of the merits of nuclear weapons should perhaps be thought over, well in advance of the next iteratin of MP HOI, but for now, things are what they are.


Well YOU suck and... wait, you agree?
Gollevainen
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 4:16:23 PM
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Quote:
The initial German push has been checked and is being pushed back as the session ended, you also only really managed to contain the Japanese surge only after it destroyed a very large number of divisions, and the Norwegian invasion was utterly destroyed and Italy is now firly in our grasp.


well what does it tell about Oceanic warcapacity if they despite huge losses can still push the japs backWink

Of the Nukes I adjoin Foels sentiment in general, It is bit stubid to whine of the nukes if youdont have any rules to prevent them use.
In axis downfall they were used in pure rage, when the annexation and a (really long lasting) game coming to an end by me and Jodokius.
It was more that "if we got to this mess due the nukes, then bloody hell we aint leaving the game without using them".
Deeds have consequences and using nukes always brings them. Axis paid the consequences, well beforehand of their using and I think Norway will pay its own (and italy if it doesen't abbort the missions)
IMO I was also ready to use the nukes in the Archangel situation but Always in the tactical sesnse, by whiping out the Blaynes armies there....



Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
King of Men
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 9:22:23 PM
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Wouldn't have helped much in the long run; the real problem was that Japanese carriers blowing up the supply convoys. If I had evacuated three months earlier we would be in a much better position, but no, I stupidly waited for spring to see if I could break out when there was no snow on the ground. Sad

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
danomite
Posted: Sunday, February 21, 2010 10:12:39 PM
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Gollevainen wrote:
well what does it tell about Oceanic warcapacity if they despite huge losses can still push the japs backWink


Indeed, I believe the Americans still have much untapped potential. They're homelands are safe aside from a few stray nukes which they could likely absorb.
What I don't understand is how the Americans can not have a navy, even after a few losses... what on earth have you guys been doing, building a 90 lane highway/Infra in northern canada or something!?!?!
Ships are not that expensive when built without brigades even and rushing down the tree to 45 techs then building a decent modern navy should have been on both there lists.

Anyways. The fight is not yet over, both sides can still muster considerable forces, so have at it already!

It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
The Professor
Posted: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:46:25 AM
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King of Men wrote:
Wouldn't have helped much in the long run; the real problem was that Japanese carriers blowing up the supply convoys. If I had evacuated three months earlier we would be in a much better position, but no, I stupidly waited for spring to see if I could break out when there was no snow on the ground. Sad


Churchill is not to be emulated, also it wasn't just the Japanese I had 12 naval bombers as well.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
The Professor
Posted: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:52:55 AM
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Foelsgaard wrote:
Jakalo is by far the best player this war.

And yes, nuclear weapons probably mean that some older players will be replaced with newer ones in the last years. If this is an unforseen consequence of having nukes allowed, then so be it. However, contrary to popular belief, the two years spent playing are not wasted if you do not win the game and/or if your country is reduced to a nuclear wasteland (unless of course you did not actually enjoy playing the game but only wanted to win).

One thing that has been annoying me a great deal is the incessant whining about nukes since we began the HoI-segment and the incessant whining about "attitudes" and "balance of power" ever since I joined the game.

Making rules (written or not) against attitudes/styles of playing is IMHO not a path we want to go down. Making rules against nukes should have been done a looong time ago.

Also, while I don't have nukes and can't be a part of the upcoming nuclear exchange (except on the receiving end), this "Come on, don't use nukes if you lose" sounds very much like "Bend over and take it" in my ears.


I am not advocating banning them but advocating that the players continue to abide by their gentlemens agreement not to use them in this war, we're not aiming for annexation just for limited although significant gains which in the end will hurt france and germany the most but leave NA mostly unharmed.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Anders
Posted: Monday, February 22, 2010 1:59:59 AM
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Clearly, you haven't been using nukes ENOUGH if you persist with this ridiculous delusion that you should avoid nuking each other.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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danomite
Posted: Monday, February 22, 2010 3:42:01 AM
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ugh 3rd time typing out this message.

Americans aren't done, They're nukes are en route, no turning back unless they plan on surrendering... Which is silly, Blayne would only be coming to the table if he HAD to, they're manpower must be in a really bad shape, not to mention resource wise too. Americans need to keep up the pressure and they can take home the gold!

It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
King of Men
Posted: Monday, February 22, 2010 6:52:44 AM
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The Professor wrote:
I am not advocating banning them but advocating that the players continue to abide by their gentlemens agreement not to use them in this war, we're not aiming for annexation just for limited although significant gains which in the end will hurt france and germany the most but leave NA mostly unharmed.


What, you dare to imply that the Ynglings would sacrifice the territory of an ally rather than accept a nuclear exchange? Death to Russia!

Dano's point about lack of manpower is a good one. Norway still has a deep reserve of manpower. I also have 50 divisions just waiting to be transported across the Atlantic in neutral, Malaysian ships. (Go on, declare war on Malaysia if you like.) Italy likewise has a bunch of divisions which have been prevented from getting into action by this minor problem of Japanese carriers in the Atlantic. In short, you are bluffing. The situation is nowhere near as favourable for your side as your proposed terms imply.

Regarding the nukes, however, I am willing to recall mine, and I feel sure that Varyar will recall his, provided of course that none fly in the other direction. Heat of the moment. Blushing

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
E. Jünger
Posted: Monday, February 22, 2010 9:44:29 AM
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King of Men wrote:
Dano's point about lack of manpower is a good one. Norway still has a deep reserve of manpower. I also have 50 divisions just waiting to be transported across the Atlantic in neutral, Malaysian ships. (Go on, declare war on Malaysia if you like.) Italy likewise has a bunch of divisions which have been prevented from getting into action by this minor problem of Japanese carriers in the Atlantic. In short, you are bluffing. The situation is nowhere near as favourable for your side as your proposed terms imply.


Interesting, so the 60 divisions lost in archangelsk meant nothing? In that case one does have to wonder why you decided to sell out Varyar with that nuke...

Let America know and ponder on this: there is something more frightening than Cain killing Abel, and that is Danomite killing Falador
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