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Ederon
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 7:32:35 PM
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Joined: 2/28/2007
Posts: 5,949
Location: Heart of Europe
So, here's what I got:

common/defines.lua
Code:
SPY_DETECTION_CHANCE     =0.08,  --0.1,
BUILDING_REPAIR_SPEED         = 0.25,    -- 0.1,
SUPPLYPOOL_DAYS = 15,    -- 30,    -- days of supply.
BASE_FORT_PENALTY = -0.075,   -- -0.09,


Notice I've reduced days of supply from 30 to 15. What do you think about it? It's really just a proposition nothing I'd insist on, but 15 days seems more reasonable to me then whole month.
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 7:39:05 PM
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looks ok, but i dont know how much it may fuck invasions. getting large ports may well take longer than a 15 days, and since we cannot drop lvl 10 ports anymore in an instant... dunno. let others decide. but it would certainly render those "armor deathmarches" into the SU (or any other country) obsolete, that's something i am in favor of.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Ederon
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 7:46:42 PM
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On the other hand, if you want to capture level 10 port and it takes longer then two weeks, you can do attack in waves. And as we did in India in last game, you can always drop one/two ports nearby to supply you until attacked port(s) gives in.
Traks
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 7:47:05 PM
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Seems good. Maybe I would leave 20 days, or 33% reduction.
Spy detection chance - we can try 0.08, even if I am in favor of 0.07
Overall SU manpower looks quite okay and vanilla value can be left.
Event for +500 can be kept. There are 3 events on transfer of factories to Siberia which give 100MP each.
USA and Romania events should stay as well.

Amount of events is still unsatisfying, unfortunately.
And trades are much harder to initiate, very often it shows minor needs some resource and when offered it is always rated "impossible".
I don't know, maybe slightly increase money production from IC to fight that? And I mean slightly, from 0.05 to 0.07?
Ederon
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 7:49:40 PM
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No, lets not alter money production. Don't forget well be humans, so we can trade between us freely without worrying about AI denying your offer.
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 8:24:11 PM
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agree on money. Should be no problem for humans. we all traded in supply equivalent, right?

@supply: I see your point and agree. anyway i am playing axis, so baically it's the allies' problem yay I agree on 20 days, as traks said.

@events: I think the USA event needs tweaking. maybe add indonesia falling or some australian key cities? because japan probably avoided taking any islands because of the advantage the USA would gain from it. in our game, the US was never really able to field any meaningful army at all.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Ederon
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 8:29:11 PM
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Gen.Schuermann wrote:
@events: I think the USA event needs tweaking. maybe add indonesia falling or some australian key cities? because japan probably avoided taking any islands because of the advantage the USA would gain from it. in our game, the US was never really able to field any meaningful army at all.

US dowed Axis, which makes people somewhat more reluctant to fight. And that was the reasoning. If US waited till Japan dows them, they'd get the boost. Maybe we should increase this boost from 300 to lets say 500 or 800? Maybe also add some MP to US after fall of France?
Hytzon
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 8:29:29 PM
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On the other hand we ended pretty early, so less time for US to build up manpower.

You can't say civilization don't advance - for in every war, they kill you in a new way.
Ederon
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 8:49:56 PM
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Joined: 2/28/2007
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Location: Heart of Europe
This is more complete proposition:

General
Code:
- Italy gets more base IC
- Japan, Germany and Italy get decision to DoW USA
- when DoWed this way, USA gets 300 MP
- when USA loses Pacific bases, it gets another 300 MP
- when SOV loses key cities in West Russia, it gains 500 MP
- when ROM loses Bessarabia, it gets 50 MP[/b]

[b]common/defines.lua[/b]
[code]SPY_DETECTION_CHANCE     =0.07,  --0.1,
BUILDING_REPAIR_SPEED         = 0.25,    -- 0.1,
SUPPLYPOOL_DAYS = 20,    -- 30,    -- days of supply.
BASE_FORT_PENALTY = -0.075,   -- -0.09,


Notice I've reduced days of supply from 30 to 15. What do you think about it? It's really just a proposition nothing I'd insist on, but 15 days seems more reasonable to me then whole month.

common/event_modifiers.txt
Code:
impassable_terrain = {
    local_revolt_risk = -100.0
}


events/MondayMod_events.txt
Code:
country_event = {

    id = 22001
    
    trigger = {
        not = { has_global_flag = "partisans" }
        ai = no
    }
    
    title = "Inhabitable provinces"
    desc = "Some provinces in the world are inhabitable. There should be no partisans in these places."
    picture = ""

    option = {
        name = "Alright."
        set_global_flag = "partisans"
        any_owned = {
            limit = { not = { infra = 2 } }
            add_province_modifier = {
                name = "impassable_terrain"
                duration = -1
            }
        }
        any_country = {
            any_owned = {
                limit = { not = { infra = 2 } }
                add_province_modifier = {
                    name = "impassable_terrain"
                    duration = -1
                }
            }
        }
    }
}

country_event = {

    id = 22002
    
    trigger = {
        any_owned_province = {
            has_province_modifier = "impassable_terrain"
            infra = 2
        }
    }
    
    title = "Province became habitable"
    desc = "Some of our inhabitable provinces became habitable thanks to the infrastructure improvements we made!"
    picture = ""

    option = {
        name = "Everything has a price."
        any_owned = {
            limit = {
                infra = 2
                has_province_modifier = "impassable_terrain"
            }
            remove_province_modifier = "impassable_terrain"
        }
    }
}


Those two are to fix partisans popping up in impassable territory.

common/buildings.txt.
Code:


[b]common/buildings.txt[/b]
[code]air_base = {
    cost = 3    #2
    time = 120    #180
}

naval_base = {
    cost = 7,5    #5
    time = 120    #180
}

coastal_fort = {
    cost = 7.5    #5
    time = 120    #180
}

land_fort = {
    cost = 7.5    #5
    time = 120    #180
}

infra = {
    cost = 2    #1
    time = 180    #365
}


units\armor_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 0.6    #1.7
    on_completion = armour_practical


units\bergsjaeger_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 0.45    #3
    on_completion = infantry_practical


units\cag.txt
Code:
    build_cost_ic = 8.75    #3.50
    build_time = 200    #500
    completion_size = 1.4    #1.8
    on_completion = single_engine_aircraft_practical


units\cas.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 1.2    #2.0
    on_completion = single_engine_aircraft_practical


units\engineer_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 0.45    #0.3
    on_completion = infantry_practical


units\heavy_armor_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 1.05    #2.5
    on_completion = armour_practical


units\infantry_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 0.4#0.2
    on_completion = infantry_practical


units\interceptor.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 1.2    #2.0
    on_completion = single_engine_aircraft_practical


units\light_armor_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 0.33    #1.0
    on_completion = armour_practical


units\marine_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 0.6    #0.3
    on_completion = infantry_practical


units\mechanized_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 0.9    #1.2
    on_completion = mobile_practical


units\motorized_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 0.45    #0.6
    on_completion = mobile_practical


units\multi_role.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 1.3    #2.1
    on_completion = single_engine_aircraft_practical


units\paratrooper_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 0.8    #0.4
    on_completion = infantry_practical


units\super_heavy_armor_brigade.txt
Code:
    completion_size = 1.05    #2.7
    on_completion = armour_practical
Ederon
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 8:59:37 PM
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Joined: 2/28/2007
Posts: 5,949
Location: Heart of Europe
Here it is if you wish to try

File Attachment(s):
mod_SF_XAPT.rar (103kb) downloaded 22 time(s).
vanilla_SF_2_0_NNTI.rar (101kb) downloaded 21 time(s).


Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 9:53:44 PM
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Daniel wrote:
US dowed Axis, which makes people somewhat more reluctant to fight. And that was the reasoning. If US waited till Japan dows them, they'd get the boost. Maybe we should increase this boost from 300 to lets say 500 or 800? Maybe also add some MP to US after fall of France?


Axis will never dow USA in an MP game imo. not in ours, anyway.
But i like the fall of France idea! say +300 if vichy exists, that seems reasonable.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Traks
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 9:57:39 PM
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Agree in Axis. They will avoid DOWing till 1948 Smile
So events should be working even if USA DOWs Axis.
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:01:59 PM
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MAybe that should be left out altogether. we dont want the USA dow in 1939 already just because of potential manpower gain.
Just add sufficient triggers (fall of france, invasion of vital parts in asia by japan), and a relatively realistic picture should emerge.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
sonofliberty
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:10:23 PM
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Gen.Schuermann wrote:
MAybe that should be left out altogether. we dont want the USA dow in 1939 already just because of potential manpower gain.
Just add sufficient triggers (fall of france, invasion of vital parts in asia by japan), and a relatively realistic picture should emerge.
Perhaps boosts from the fall of nanjing(+100), the benelux dows(+100), the formation of vichy(+300) and the fall of china(+300)?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:15:57 PM
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hmmm, i like that idea. we need to limit this to some 1000mp in total, though. but fall of china +300 opens up nice possibilities for a realistic ww2 in the east.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Fiendix
Posted: Tuesday, June 08, 2010 11:19:23 PM
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Gen.Schuermann wrote:
MAybe that should be left out altogether. we dont want the USA dow in 1939 already just because of potential manpower gain.
Just add sufficient triggers (fall of france, invasion of vital parts in asia by japan), and a relatively realistic picture should emerge.


in this game i had barely any mp to speak of
Ederon
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:17:00 AM
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Ok, I'll work on the triggers. We shall remove the DoW event which gives 300 mp and boost the other ones.
Forgiven
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:25:51 AM
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1000 mp is a lot...

I've always found the us early joining to allies to make things too easy for allies, then again, last game didn't go that way in the end, so I could be wrong, but, my opinion would be, to mod things so that
1. US gets mp if DoW'ed
2. US gets mp if Japan attacks (western) allies (+ event for US to join the war in that case)
3. Some US mp if they actually lose territory...
...if you wish to add those SoL listed at least make them 100 each only, that's a lot lot lot mp you are suggesting for US essentially pre war. If anything, this will speed up the war that is already progressing too fast...
...US was always remote and not that manpower heavy for combat arms, supply, sure, but that's kinda hidden, US still gets what 50 or 60 mp/month when on full war footing right? That's already a lot, you just need to wait to the ~1944...
...Then again, in case of some weird events Rolleyes you might give US proper manpower boost in case of invasion on continental US soil.

On that dropping supply to 15 days or 20 from 30...
...test it well, it won't only affect invasions, I'm afraid it'll also affect how much supply troops in front line demand and that could lead to something catastrophic on the workings of whole supply structure, mind you, I'm not sure it will, but at least test it.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Which is a problem, if you are powerless.
Ederon
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:31:33 AM
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Posts: 5,949
Location: Heart of Europe
Forgiven wrote:
1000 mp is a lot...

I've always found the us early joining to allies to make things too easy for allies, then again, last game didn't go that way in the end, so I could be wrong, but, my opinion would be, to mod things so that
1. US gets mp if DoW'ed
2. US gets mp if Japan attacks (western) allies (+ event for US to join the war in that case)
3. Some US mp if they actually lose territory...
...if you wish to add those SoL listed at least make them 100 each only, that's a lot lot lot mp you are suggesting for US essentially pre war. If anything, this will speed up the war that is already progressing too fast...
...US was always remote and not that manpower heavy for combat arms, supply, sure, but that's kinda hidden, US still gets what 50 or 60 mp/month when on full war footing right? That's already a lot, you just need to wait to the ~1944...
...Then again, in case of some weird events Rolleyes you might give US proper manpower boost in case of invasion on continental US soil.

Yeah, we shouldn't overdo it.

Quote:
On that dropping supply to 15 days or 20 from 30...
...test it well, it won't only affect invasions, I'm afraid it'll also affect how much supply troops in front line demand and that could lead to something catastrophic on the workings of whole supply structure, mind you, I'm not sure it will, but at least test it.

I absolutely agree. It's "unguided missile", this change. But since everyone can try the mod already, we can test it well I think.
sonofliberty
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:46:18 AM
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Those were meant for individual consideration. Either mp as a reaction to rape of nanjing or fall of china(with the fall being worse) and either benelux or vichy. So ranging from 200 to 600.
Keep in mind though that the USA did not build massive numbers of troops as a result of a conscious strategic decision; not due to a lack of manpower. The USA decided to arm the allies, and to do that they needed the manpower at home running the factories. Sure, Rosie the Riveter made her contribution but the overwhelming number of workers were still men. Men that could have been sent to combat. Not to mention that "college deferments" still abounded.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 1:05:25 AM
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Daniel wrote:
I absolutely agree. It's "unguided missile", this change. But since everyone can try the mod already, we can test it well I think.


I am 100% positive it affects frontline units as well.
I just ran a testgame tonight, but havent been able to do proper fighting yet, just let my AI beat poland (btw. i really like the new AI, it does really well now in preparing stuff etc. No need to do the boring OOB work, just let the AI handle it, some finetuning, et voila Smile ).

will report back on thursday, wont have much time tomorrow.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Forgiven
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 11:44:44 AM
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sonofliberty wrote:

Keep in mind though that the USA did not build massive numbers of troops as a result of a conscious strategic decision; not due to a lack of manpower.


Conscious strategic decision, or conscious political decision? As in would they have been able to push such 'dramatic' policy through and still win the next election? Considerations, I must confess I'm speculating here with no actual reference to give.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Which is a problem, if you are powerless.
teamgene
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:22:46 PM
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By 1944 USA like every other country in the war, had manpower issues. Major manpower issues as high IQ recruits were given rifles instead of rear echelon. This was not done before then.

As far as HOI is concerned many things are fudged down to make the game playable. Both USA and SU had populations of around 200 million to germany's 50 million. Realistically, USA IC would probably be at least double what it is and Mexico's resources would be drastically higher as 40% of the raw resources used by USA in WW2 came from Mexico.

Guderian's book before the war Achtung Panzer gives a pretty good picture of USA production compared to the rest of the world. America's production muscle in the war came as no surprise to him.
Fiendix
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:25:25 PM
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all i can say is that as this is the first MP game we should leave stuff as is and play the vanilla version. there are many new diplo things that are to balance things out.. I suggest we see and then do changes..
sonofliberty
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 1:27:08 PM
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Forgiven wrote:
Conscious strategic decision, or conscious political decision? As in would they have been able to push such 'dramatic' policy through and still win the next election? Considerations, I must confess I'm speculating here with no actual reference to give.
A mix of both really. Though after Pearl Harbor, if we went mainly for the Japs, I believe the USA could have drafted many more.

armchairgeneral.com wrote:

Objectors Under the Draft Laws As Of December 1, 1942” (see Subject File: Conscientious Objection/Objectors -- U.S. Sources, 1942]
* all males between the ages of 18 & 65 were required to register for the draft; those who became 18 after January 1, 1943 were to register on their 18th birthday

I Available for service

I-A Available; fit for general military service

I-A-O Conscientious objectors eligible for military service in noncombatant role

I-B Available; fit only for limited military service

I-B-O Conscientious objectors available for limited service [not used after Aug. 18, 1942]

I-C Members of land or naval forces of the United States

I-D Students fit for general military service; available not later than July 1, 1941

I-E Students fit for limited military service; available not later than July 1, 1941

I-H Men deferred by reason of age [not in effect any more, as provision deferring men over 28 years of age had been repealed?]

II Deferred because of occupational status

II-A Men necessary in their civilian activity

II-B Men necessary to national defense
II-C Men necessary to farm labor

III Deferred because of dependents

III-A Men with dependents, not engaged in work essential to national defense

III-B Men with dependents, engaged in work essential to national defense

IV Deferred specifically by law or because unfit for military service

IV-A Men who had completed service [not considered in time of war]

IV-B Officials deferred by law
IV-C Nondeclarant aliens

IV-D Ministers of religion or divinity students

IV-E Conscientious objectors available only for civilian work of national importance

IV-E-LS Conscientious objectors available for limited civilian work of national importance

IV-E-H Men formerly classified in IV-E or IV-E-LS, since deferred by reason of age

IV-F Men physically, mentally or morally unfit


As you can see, there were many classifications that received "deferments" who could have been used if needed.
To answer your strategic/political determination question:

Quote:
Although President Roosevelt neither shared nor pandered to this viewpoint, he understood the strength of the isolationist position. With one eye on his upcoming reelection bid in 1940, he acted carefully. Some of his New Deal supporters, notably labor leaders, feared that a preparedness drive centered on a powerful War Resources Administration would undermine much recent social legislation. So, rather than begin a massive central rearmament effort, he launched a limited preparedness campaign at the start of 1939, with his emphasis on increasing the striking power of the Army Air Corps. The Army, in turn, used the opportunity of the air buildup and the $575 million appropriation for a more balanced expansion. Momentum picked up after the German invasion of Poland in September and the outbreak of a general European war. Proclaiming a limited national emergency, Roosevelt authorized an increase to 227,000 for the Regular Army and to 235,000 for the National Guard.

Although full-scale mobilization remained politically impossible, the government started the financial transition from parsimony to abundance. By the time of Pearl Harbor, Congress had spent more for Army procurement than it had for the Army and the Navy during all of World War I.

So a "full mobilization" should produce serious dissent(7-10%?), it is obvious that much more could have been done.

Quote:
The munitions program of June 1940, the clearest practical manifestation of the defense period represented an effort to estimate and cope with the anticipated expansion of the force. Its goals included the procurement by October 1941 of all items needed to equip and maintain an army of 1.2 million, including the Air Corps, and creation of production facilities to support an army of over four million. Directed by the Army and Navy Munitions Board, this program set up a priorities system, apportioned industrial capacity between the services, cleared foreign contracts for munitions production in the United States, and compiled military needs for strategic raw materials. Procurement districts, arsenals, depots, and other establishments were activated and expanded. The $6 billion that was allotted was only half of the War Department's request, but it was almost as much as the nation had spent on the department between 1922 and 1940 and a major turning point in the rehabilitation of the Army.



In terms of the production of the materiel needed for any expansion of the Army, the start of the munitions program constituted M-day. However, the concept was not invoked at the time. Passage of selective service legislation awaited the return of Congress in the autumn. In fact, the first peacetime draft in the nation's history became law in September, one month after the president federalized the National Guard. There was little point in announcing an M-day for materiel and then waiting three months to announce another for manpower. Those who thought about the sequence, though, knew that if the two aspects of mobilization had to be separate, materiel should come first. Even though the sequence was correct, the needs of the force of 1.5 million that was assembled by June 1941 were largely unmet. As had so often happened in the past, troops were being mobilized before equipment was available.


Quote:
Lend-lease, a program started in September 1941 to provide materiel for those nations already at war with the Axis, also helped stimulate production. From the beginning, the Allies expected that the primary contribution of the United States would be its industrial capacity. The imperatives of this support program required careful balancing of the manpower needs of industry and the military. The Soviet Union, reeling under the German invasion of June 1941, was especially desperate. A calculated risk, lend-lease ultimately delayed mobilization by reducing, for example, the number of aircraft available to the U.S. Army Air Corps; the program slowed training. Later foreign munitions aid also became a problem to other Army elements. In the short run, however, lend-lease helped generate the demand that activated assembly lines. The policy of encouraging recipients to use standard American military equipment helped assure that factories produced the right items and enabled planners to divert these supplies to American use when needed.


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