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The convoy war. Options · View
Nieldo
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:00:47 AM
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Just wondering now, as the game is over, how did the Allies convoys suffer during the game? Did it effect your resources and eventually your IC?
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 1:09:07 AM
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Convoy war was good, but whacky. i knew where your subs were, but fuck me, there was no way to catch them. neither modern US navy nor my outdated one. very weird.

anyway, in the end i was pretty much at very low convoys, to the point where my IC dropped due to lack of rares (but that was due to bad foresight, leaving singapore et. al. unguarded/ripe to take). i also didnt build a lot of convoys beforehand, because i thought i would never need as much. boy was i wrong yay

Now that the naval part is more polished it will play a lot different. i think subs sink even more now, but they also get caught pretty easily. i am looking forward to the cat and mouse play Smile

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Hytzon
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:14:36 AM
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This time you get to build subs hehe.

Well I looked into the latest save and I think it's quite clear why you couldn't find my subs. I had much better doctrines and higher teched subs. I mean you didn't really research much ASW like small ship radar or anything.
Also the subs are more successful during the early years, and our game didn't last long enough for the ASW things to catch up.

Both the UK and US subs sunk a great deal of German convoys, but I never wen't below 80 spare so not much of a problem. On the other hand I had one line of convoys and escorts running since the beginning of the game.

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Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 9:42:36 AM
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Well i know i wouldnt be able to catch yours, but america helped me a great bit, but they too could find shit, and they were top notch. i concentrated too much on a land army.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Hytzon
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:28:28 AM
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Hmm I will have to look at that when I come home...
Keep in mind that I lost at least 9 subs during the game, I think I had 3 operating when we ended. So you did catch them from time to time.

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Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 10:50:48 AM
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thing is i always saw them on the map, my navs were constantly strafing the area, but they never found squat.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Forgiven
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 11:41:10 AM
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This is not all covering knowledge, but from what I found out, when I had my cl+2dd fleet seeking those 2 British subs at the coast of Alexandria, changing to commander with 'spotter' trait changed things a lot, I had been patrolling there for a month or two and after I changed the commander they were found within days...

And as to Italy, while the med was open to British and French subs, it was not good, while I know that I sunk lot lot more, I also didn't have all that many of mine to lose, I was down to 10-20 spare subs at worst times...
...and after med was closed, it turned to Italian subs sinking very little and Italy losing about none in convoys...
I also employed surface raiders in med though, not sure how well the did, 3x CA+CL raiding pairs, I'm sure they sunk some, were probably among the first to get sunk too, though I'm quite sure one of them survived until med was closed, probably escaped combat and were sent to port.

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Fiendix
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:13:07 PM
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yea finding subs was a bitch. The zounds of jap dds that hunted ours had a hard time. Nice to see though that japan was badly hurt and needed to add a lot of convoys at one point to the build que.
Traks
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:31:52 PM
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What was slightly wrong, that even LVL1 subs with no engines were avoiding any catching.
This LVL1 sub of Italy lived well into 1941 or even 1942 when sunk.
teamgene
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 12:46:07 PM
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We had a lot of dd's searching, but from what I can tell it was just a matter of luck finding a sub. I didn't see a single time where air power helped with subs, though we had them flying at times. It did help spotting location of subs, but I don't recall one attacked from the air.

I totally underestimated how many convoys Japan would need, so Japan never had a surplus of convoys, so they were a constant build. Considering the number of US subs lost, I am not sure the loss ratio(IC wise), except again USA can absorb any losses more than Japan. I do know as a player, I did like it when I knew Fiendix was not going to be in game, because I knew the submarine war would be low. Just too much going on for one US player. While I didn't check perhaps as often as I would have liked, whenever I spotted US subs in guam we would launch air attacks, but that was rare that I would check. Not sure if we sunk subs or they moved to other ports as you don't get a report of sinkings in port strikes.





Hytzon
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 1:10:30 PM
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When I decided to risk my fleet and go after the British subs outside Gibraltar, I found them nearly instantaneous. This was with my fleet consisting of a CV and some CL's + DD's.
As I said before, my doctrines were very good and I had upgraded radar on all ships - this helps a lot! You need to check that the sub hunting fleets have the latest equipment installed.

This is also true for NAV's, but generally I don't think they do that well against subs.

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Fiendix
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 1:38:32 PM
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teamgene wrote:

I totally underestimated how many convoys Japan would need, so Japan never had a surplus of convoys, so they were a constant build. Considering the number of US subs lost, I am not sure the loss ratio(IC wise), except again USA can absorb any losses more than Japan. I do know as a player, I did like it when I knew Fiendix was not going to be in game, because I knew the submarine war would be low. Just too much going on for one US player. While I didn't check perhaps as often as I would have liked, whenever I spotted US subs in guam we would launch air attacks, but that was rare that I would check. Not sure if we sunk subs or they moved to other ports as you don't get a report of sinkings in port strikes.



oh i loved the sub war - I think we lost the initial 12? subs we got plus a couple of more lvl Vs that I built. Cant remember. Definately worth it IMO for usa as there is not much else you can do with the subs plus they were cheap to replace and did lots of damage. 1 sub sunk way more than the 10-14? convoys it costs.
No subs were lost to air attacks IIRC.
Forgiven
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 2:33:04 PM
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I think my nav's contributed to sinking of subs, but I had to use the surface fleet to engage them first, and only after that send the subs in.
I actually tried to follow 'sort of real life navy' doctrine when I organized my original fleet, and it did work surprisingly well, excluding that the small ships failed to run from engagement when found by French or British battle fleets...
(I had 4 ASW task forces of 1cl + 2-3 dds for sub hunting in med, and they did find the french subs quite soon, I did sink most of them before french surrender, though they also took heavy hits from the subs they were hunting on occasion...)

And, Traks, major reason why those lowly subs of mine survived that long, was the fact that they survived the Mediterranean battle, I lost half my subs during it, I think, the other half lived, regardless of class, and were then sent to obscure location like Diego Garcia island, where they found very few Brit convoys and were never actively hunted, I moved them to Madagascar in late '41 where they were more successful and eventually enough of a nuisance to get hit by something...

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Which is a problem, if you are powerless.
Traks
Posted: Wednesday, June 09, 2010 2:46:40 PM
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Aha, sounds right to me. Then I would say overall it is pretty balanced.
I agree on air power being useless against subs.
In other game I had radar 2 squares away, highlighting lone enemy sub. My NAV planes would find nothing for a month.
After month I sent in my Itallian Killer Navy, which found radared sub instantly.

So something is wrong with planes vs subs, at least before 1943.
teamgene
Posted: Thursday, June 10, 2010 1:45:55 AM
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Fiendix wrote:
oh i loved the sub war - I think we lost the initial 12? subs we got plus a couple of more lvl Vs that I built. Cant remember. Definately worth it IMO for usa as there is not much else you can do with the subs plus they were cheap to replace and did lots of damage. 1 sub sunk way more than the 10-14? convoys it costs.
No subs were lost to air attacks IIRC.


I think subs make great recon units without convoy raiding.
Kyril
Posted: Thursday, June 10, 2010 2:55:45 AM
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I have to say that after 3 versions of HOI, they finally got Subs right in 1.4. Even in small numbers, they can be a real pain, both for sinking (the now more expensive) convoys and keep a reasonable ammount of enemy ships busy hunting them in the 'early' war, but become a lot more vulnerable later on when better doctrines and technologies become available.

Shame most HOI games end early (close to or in '42) Sad. I would love to see an MP game reaching later dates, but even after tons of games since HOI1, I only seen it happen 3 times Sad.
Nieldo
Posted: Thursday, June 10, 2010 4:59:54 PM
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I was a bit disappointed we finished as well, granted Russia was pretty much done, but they had the momentum and were starting to counter attack against me.

USA and UK were still in the game as well, there was plenty of fighting left to do.
Hytzon
Posted: Thursday, June 10, 2010 5:19:01 PM
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Nothing much the Allies can do when Axis suddenly outproduce them massively, while having a much bigger army, comparable air force and almost as big a fleet.
And as that wasn't enough, Axis held all the strategic places around the globe except Panama Big Grin

EDIT: Ohh SU would surrender just a few days after we ended, because Arkhangelsk would fall.. That couldn't be prevented.

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Kyril
Posted: Thursday, June 10, 2010 6:30:36 PM
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Nieldo wrote:
I was a bit disappointed we finished as well, granted Russia was pretty much done, but they had the momentum and were starting to counter attack against me.

USA and UK were still in the game as well, there was plenty of fighting left to do.


Well, should you have wondered why the counter at Stalingrad was pretty limmited: at the time we were running at roughly 100 supplies / 100 Fuel, so we had to economise on which troops to move. Also, even with a Port left, it wasnt allowed to make trade with the US.

Probably a mistake from me to not regain the VP north of Stalingrad first (the one reinforced with a Para), instead of the one to the West of it, but overal, it probably would have been only a small delay to the inevitable.
Fiendix
Posted: Thursday, June 10, 2010 7:05:16 PM
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Kyril wrote:
Also, even with a Port left, it wasnt allowed to make trade with the US.



yea that was wierd.
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