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Session 8 - 21st February - 20:00 CET Options · View
juv95hrn
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 1:18:25 PM
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19.00 or is anyone going to be late?

See you in a few...
Ederon
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 1:19:39 PM
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It's time for this story to continue. Since I'm having long day at work, I'd have problem appearing at 19:00 CET. Let's start at 20:00 CET, 19:45 CET for those being late. Smile
juv95hrn
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 3:09:59 PM
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See you at 19.45 then. Thumbs Up Thanks for giving prior notice.
Hytzon
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 3:12:40 PM
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Great, looking forward to an intense session.

See you at 19.45 CET.

You can't say civilization don't advance - for in every war, they kill you in a new way.
Fiendix
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 3:25:54 PM
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lovely gives me 45 more mins to appease my wife this time with chocolates Banghead Blushing
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Monday, February 21, 2011 5:43:25 PM
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Will be right thurrr right thurr

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Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:27:22 AM
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Ah, what a disgrace, i just suck in the naval aspect of HoI3. This is one of the few things i hate with HoI2, i just cant seem to be good at it.
I think i'll also start working a new '38 at some point, it is clear the axis will very likely win yet again, and it bothers me that the allies have no means to fight.

But this is for another thread, i am just frustrated right now with HoI3 as it is to the point that i consider throwing the towel.
But i am looking forward to a good fight in mexico

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Ederon
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:30:40 AM
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As you said, you're just frustrated right now, so let's wait till next session. We have enough time to think it over and after you take a deep breath, you'll see it's not such a disaster. It can be still funny game yet. Ending now would be real shame as there is expansion underway and we'll likely wait with new game till then, so...
teamgene
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:34:36 AM
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You got to remember that you are fighting some very experienced players when it comes to carrier warfare. This is your first time with the new rules using a naval power. There is quite a curve from when you were UK to now.
juv95hrn
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:47:24 AM
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Exciting session even if I didn't get to fight today either. Its pretty clear its not going to be an early Barbarossa.

I like the move in Mexico. It's annoying for the USA but I doubt it should be threathening to her very existance unless I'm wrong? The unrealistic and unbalanced JAP MP gain after conquering Asia might prove me wrong here I really don't know.

All in all I don't think the Axis has "won" even if they are slightly ahead.


plus
Conquest of Asia
Naval victories
USA islands
Mexico (I suppose... might turn into a curse imo)

Minus
Lost North Africa
Not conquered the Middle East (yet)
Mediterranean still open


I'd say the war isn't over until the Axis knocks out one of the majors and so far they haven't managed to land in the UK itself even if they seem to be itching to do just that.



Regarding the naval loss I wonder what went wrong. Was it the stacking penalty of 6 vs 4 CVs thats solely to blame? OOS issues? CAG duty vs naval strike? I'd think doctrine and leaders should basically even themselves out. So was it a coin toss that went Japans way or did USA pull a humungous blunder by stacking 6 CVs? It might be 1 or 2 too many but is it really that bad with USAs leaders? I'm confused.

If its all WAD and it might as well have gone the other wat I'd say the system is a bit deadly and one sided. Personally I think I'd have used 2 x3 fleets or one with 4-5 CVs instead of 6 but UK was apparantly owned with a 3 fleet so is the secret Jap ahead of time research of CAGs in absurdum or what happened?




We also need to discuss the sliver of land that Italy left. Feels a bit odd. Can the UK edit it to SOV if they want to when war breaks out? Otherwise it feels *slightly* gamey to stay behind it even if I'm partial to the situation. (I'm in the south Axis so you know!)
Fiendix
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:50:14 AM
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sry it was 8 vs 24 - big overstack and you wacked me bad - after that your usa ships (as uk ran?) tried to intercept my bashed up cv fleet - but engaged the second fleet (lower one from current combat) which i must say was my best cv fleet with the best cags. i caught u in full daylight and it could end in one way only.
Forgiven
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:01:05 AM
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Hmn.....
I'm not really sure what my final thinking on that sliver is, you would have been fine being forced into UK territory if I had not recaptured any of it right? (Biggest reason I let UK have it as long as I did was the fact that it'd practically secure Turkey from soviets)...
...But I'm quite sure I'll capture it soonish after the war starts anyways, say a month or so, depending a bit when the war starts, part of it's purpose was to prevent you seeing what I have there, which I now realize is bit foolish as UK can see it and probably the radar in sevastopol too...

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Which is a problem, if you are powerless.
Ederon
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:11:24 AM
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Forgiven wrote:
Hmn.....
I'm not really sure what my final thinking on that sliver is, you would have been fine being forced into UK territory if I had recaptured any of it right? (Biggest reason I let UK have it as long as I did was the fact that it'd practically secure Turkey from soviets)...
...But I'm quite sure I'll capture it soonish after the war starts anyways, say a month or so, depending a bit when the war starts, part of it's purpose was to prevent you seeing what I have there, which I now realize is bit foolish as UK can see it and probably the radar in sevastopol too...

If you are just hiding there then you can safely take it. There is nothing eye of Soviet people can't see. And yes, juv was referring to that strip, providing you cheap force field against any Soviet threat.
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:32:33 AM
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Ah, yes, the first battle. I got out of that without org loss and carriers fully orged. Then your cags attacked me, i think orging down 2 carriers before your other fleet arrived/i ran into it.
It was a 16vs16 battle, i was full org on 4 CVs and 2 about halfway down or less, cannot recall. Up until the end the cags were almost 3/4 of org. So i dont know what was wrong.


In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Fiendix
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 1:48:29 AM
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was that the first hr? remeber that i had first 4 hrs of shooting and you dropped into me in full daylight. And again that was my best fleet of cvs and cags.. maybe i was lucky to target capital ships and u had only cvs there?

pity i didnt save - id have loved to see the battle stats - esp the planes and what they were targeting.

edit - yea it is the first hrs or so - look at uss wasp - its still full org and str and went down in the end. and it seems all 3 went down from 1 stack - interesting.
Traks
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 8:41:02 AM
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I have told so before, naval battles are deadly.
In 4 hours half of fleet usually is down or severely damaged, and after 12 hours any naval battle is completely over.
While it is better than pingpong in HOI2, I would vote for less deadliness.
And there is not clear indication why one side is winning in carrier battles.
More like a coin toss.

USA does seem to have "poor supply" modifier, which reduces effectiveness of CAGs and ships.
Besides Japanese general has 66,6 positioning Evil Grin
Hytzon
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:38:43 AM
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MEH!

We tried to coordinate our naval efforts and we had carrier superiority in the area, but still the Japanese got lucky... I think those 3-4 Jap carriers from the first fleet got away with 10-20% strength each, damn it! But ok, so did one of my carrier fleets. At least I sunk 6 destroyers after the main battles, they were easy prey... In one session I fought major naval assets from all Axis powers, lol... Sad

The 11 brigades lost in the Karachi area was unfortunate, I did not have time to micromanage them and the paradrop trapped them. However, my army was bigger by the end of the session than when we started - that's at least something.


You can't say civilization don't advance - for in every war, they kill you in a new way.
Ederon
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:57:35 AM
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Traks wrote:
Besides Japanese general has 66,6 positioning Evil Grin

LOL yes, after all - it was Fiend-ix Big Grin

Naval battles in HoI3 are kind of flip/flop matter. We might want to discuss what we can do about it in talks about mod for the next game.
Fiendix
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 10:59:38 AM
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Karachi

Planning to do that last week but didn get a chance - thanfully u didnt move far so i still had a chance to kill u there. Overall quite a bit of rich ic units lost for uk for not much risk..

Calcutta

Think u guys were haveing supply issues (finally)- thus the mass retreat - thankfully usa decided to move out and help you when we decided to go for mexico. Half of that was done out of supply - thankfully now we got ports and thinks are easier Smile. As soon as i saw usa fleet move past puerto rico area we moved our cvs to colombo. One bait fleet destroyed the bb fleet with the esc cv and then we were fortunate enough that we got first shots with our full orged cv fleet. Lucky you didnt lose more Tongue.

The dds were 4 - and it was a miscommunication - they were to be in colombo not in the middle of the sea with no cover... oh well happens.

See you got quite a few shit out Sad - still some left though Evil Grin

Mexico

I hope that was a suprise - we were planning this for 2-3 sessions - lots of micro on Orthanks side thats why he didnt have a clue what was going on last game in india - really good you guys stopped otherwise all this shit would have gone down the drain.
Pity we didnt catch any usa fleets near usa - at least those in africa/india got a bloody nose Tongue
Fiendix
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:02:46 AM
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Daniel wrote:


Naval battles in HoI3 are kind of flip/flop matter. We might want to discuss what we can do about it in talks about mod for the next game.


i agree that they sometimes go v fast. Just note (dont know if this has any effect but still):

1) usa had no capital ships escorting (though frankly last game as japan some of my cvs also went down like flies even with heavy escorts)
2) usa had older cvs

Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:14:39 AM
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You had one CA escort, right? Does it make that much of a difference? I am still a newb at hoi3 naval battles, that's why i am asking.

Yes i had older CVs, and iirc those were the ones to go down, but still that one hour kill, i dont get it frankly. Yes, much of WW2 carrier fighting was due to luck, i mean the japs, with 2-3 lucky battles, could have defeated the pacific fleet just like that, but got unlucky.

We need to do something massive about the balance for next game, i am thinking of a couple of things to test Smile

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Fiendix
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:26:34 AM
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as i said in the last game even with that combo i still could get wacked in the first hr. Dont know exactly how it works. there are a number of reasons i do this - still war is ongoing so id rather not get into it Smile. I used to use more ca but dont know if the positioning hit was worth it.... there was definately luck involved Smile.
Plus again look at the fact that the first fleet got off - that means that targeting must have changed in hrs - maybe i just got lucky - 8 cags fireing on 15 of you ships stat gives a +50% chance to target cvs...
Traks
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:30:25 AM
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What affects chance of CV fleet geting away:
average speed. With slower average speed then enemy you got good chances of going down the drain.
That's why old CV fleets are going down pretty easy against modern ones.
juv95hrn
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:31:33 AM
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I'd rather see 1vs3 or 2vs4 losses than 0 vs 3-4 all the time. Other than that these battles seem to have worked fine even if Japan came out on top this time too. Better ships, defending, potentially better doctrines seems to have settled the issue.

The 65% vs 66.5% positioning... what it the influx on the battle of that? It decides starting positions but does it mean Japan gains 1.5% advantage, which is very little or is it black and white, Japan won so they get all the advantages of a won positioning roll?

I thought combat turns were 1 hour. Do one side really fire uninterrupted for 4 hours than the other side returns fire? That seems a little unbalanced.

And I agree, there should be a a chance that the fleet entering the sea zone becomes the "defender" and fires first.
Fiendix
Posted: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 11:36:25 AM
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i cant really comment positioning as its still fuzzy - overall the higher the better.

only with cvs its 4 hrs - in the meantime ships still fire at each other at the same time . Still if it was reduced to 2 hrs i think it would be better - though still we could have the loss of org in the first hr so that wouldnt change much.

Look - frankly in terms of balance japan has to stand a chance - we need better navy at start - Im sure usa with 450 ic can spend 40-60 on 8 brand new cvs - and prolly has many in the que. The whole point of this is that usa has to deal with japan and not "bug" ita or ger... its nov 1940.

With all due respect, the games are over in 1941 or 1942 usually. We are having a WW2 in fast forward, and need to balance the game as such. I understand your point, of course.
I will think about something for next game to accommodate for that fact.
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