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JASGripen
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 8:56:27 AM
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Hi guys I thought we could start to discuss the coming campaign game even though the current campaign is not finished.

Things to discuss:


1) Who can play?

2) When to play?

3) What do you want to play?

4) House rules?



1)
I can play and I will try to activate a heap of old players in order to get some more players into the game. We really need two players on the majors. Both for redundancy and for multitasking. See if you can activate some too.

2)
Realistically there will be no new start until our campaign ends, the 3,06 patch is released and Summer is over. I suggest we let this rest, but gaming during the summer is not possible for me and I guess others are out too. Tuesdays works well for me, but I can play about any weekday except Friday. Start 20.00 seems as what we can agree on and ending about 11.30 seems to be all-right too. Planning to play every week works well with this group, but we really need double players on the majors for redundancy.

3)
I rather travel around the countries. I have done Italy and Soviet now. FRA (-> USA), UK or GER would be fun.

The five first would be nice to get double players on:
GER
UK
USSR
JPN
ITA
FRA (-> goes US)
Nat Chi (-> goes US)
[Other countries can be played, but lets try to fill these above up]

4) House rules.

I have seen so many variants of house rules some more excessive than others. First I would like to state my philosophy about house rules. I do not like them but sometimes they are needed., They should be kept to a minimum. Often people create house rules in order to counter an asymmetric threat they do not like. I now mean asymmetry in the von clausewizian way (not in the counterinsurgency way). With that said, war is about exploiting the enemy, finding areas where you are asymmetrical strong and play those areas to the hilt while avoiding the areas were you are asymmetrical weak.
I like innovation (who doesn't?) and I see the HoI series as a complex game and it should be allowed to be complex. Restricting certain moves because they are asymmetrical strong vs a conventional strategy (building troops the standard 101 way) is not making the game justice. Taken to the extreme it just boil the game down to fielding about the same type of units and see which side gets out of MP first. Certain areas might still be all to strong to be allowed. My only restriction here is the old rule about not logistic bomb the capital or its adjacent provinces. It is rather to strong as it affects all units for the attacked country and it is also not very innovative.

Suggested house rules:
• Do not logistic bomb capitals and adjacent provinces.
• US get a human player when they enter the Allies or when NAT CHI/FRA is defeated (they can go other allied country if they want too for a while).
• Germany gets 48 hours free trade attempts at start of game in order to establish some good trade (No US player at start should give good trades).

I know some has expressed strong feelings against the DLC Common Weapons of World War II, so strong that they do not want to play with it. I can respect that, but I nevertheless would say that I personally would like to play with it., I do not think it really changes things in a fundamental way, it is mainly flavour stuff (even if I can see that some units be exploited, but they do cost and it has been some patching/balancing since the release of the DLC too). CWWWII for 9 sek





The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives.
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.

//G. K. Chesterton
Praetori
Posted: Wednesday, May 16, 2012 9:09:49 PM
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1. I'm up for more games. I'm still trying to sway Besuchov but he's had scarce time between Sengoku and a little one at home. A new campaign is possibly a better option to join.

2. I can play basically anytime. I just need to know well in advance so that I can adjust my schedule for autumn. The current hours suits me well as it's past bedtime for the kids.

3. Regarding countries I can play anything. I still haven't adopted fully to the FTM naval game yet so putting me on a Major with fleet responsibility is probably a bad idea. Come autumn I might have learned however.
I must say that it's been fun but extremely hard to play as a sole Soviet player against two Germans, one Italian and one Japanese at the same time.
Some very stupid mistakes have been made on my part simply because I can't keep an eye on the whole front at once and neither technology nor industry is anywhere near as optimized as I would have wanted.
I therefore would wish to play with someone experienced if I play a major power the next game.

4. Most of our house-rules are ok. The reservist rules are ok but I'd rather see a full ban for anything but militia and garrisons and a complete building ban of reserves once at war (possibly with the exception of China).
Not being able to coup as the SU is a bit of a bore as it's basically all you can do as a commintern nation as far as foreign affairs go up until the war breaks out. Normally you just end up with the USSR and the few satellites in the game from scratch.
We really need to think about resistance-cells as they're very powerful in the current incarnation. I don't know if anything's been changed in that regard with 3.06 but I can say that I went very easy on them and still hordes appeared in Axis occupied SU. I didn't deploy any in the Far East as the going there was slow enough as it was.

Regarding DLC I'm not opposed it but I feel that requiring specific DLC might turn away players that might otherwise join.
Alex_brunius
Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012 2:13:07 AM
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JASGripen wrote:
My only restriction here is the old rule about not logistic bomb the capital or its adjacent provinces. It is rather to strong as it affects all units for the attacked country and it is also not very innovative.

Actually logistically bombing the capital or surronding provinces does nothing... Tongue
These provinces have unlimited throughput regardless of infrastructure since FTM. It's province layer number two you should be worried about and that can shut down an entire front.


I love to play but need to take a closer look on Common Weapons, last time I checked it out I recall spotting huge imbalances and really wierd things... (the same reason I never liked to play DiDays in MP).

About who to play I can play any major. I would suggest Germany out of lazyness though since you get a chance on revenge from our first game, since I'm moderating the Axis subforum here and since we want someone experienced playing Germany anyways.

Edit: yep, was just as I suspected when it comes to common weapons. They never bothered to balance practical gains for any added units, so by building for example MTBs you gain about 5 times as much practical per IC spent as you do when building DDs...
I'm not going to touch that mod in mp Tongue

We also end up in a strange situation where all changes done in 3.06 affecting unit files (such as more expensive tanks and changed terrain modifiers on units) are reverted by the DLC.
JASGripen
Posted: Thursday, May 17, 2012 10:43:09 PM
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Good thing that it is like that w capitals et ali, one house rule less then.

About the dlc, lets see where it heads after the patch. Your concern about ot Alex should be brought to DDs attention. He is active and open for suggestions so there is reason to communicate suggestions to him. I do not want to play an unbalanced dlc either, but it would be nice to use it if it is fixed.

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives.
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.

//G. K. Chesterton
Alex_brunius
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 9:42:14 AM
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JASGripen wrote:
About the dlc, lets see where it heads after the patch. Your concern about ot Alex should be brought to DDs attention. He is active and open for suggestions so there is reason to communicate suggestions to him. I do not want to play an unbalanced dlc either, but it would be nice to use it if it is fixed.

Pretty sure I reported the problem as soon as I saw it about a year ago or when he was active with DiDays.

I did report some other things about terrain efficiencies that didn't make sense and overpowered heavy assault guns (they had 16 soft attack and +80% vs fort and urban or something like that Tongue), and those were fixed to some degree at least.



Id rather make a "new" mod myself instead based from Common Weapons but using 3.06 tech/base unit values and overhauling other things.

Changes I would consider:
* Removing MTBs
* Nerfing Marines (Juvs suggestion)
* Adding Amtracs (Mec Marines)
* Adding in some of Peekees beta values to make units better at defending...
* Some changes to subs/ASW and CVs.
* Some suggestions from the beta forums about trying to balance so all brigadetypes are useful.
* Nerfs to Art (Really why isn't this in 3.06?)

It's probably alot of work if I do it but better then sitting around waiting for DD.
JASGripen
Posted: Friday, May 18, 2012 6:30:53 PM
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Sure I am with you in fixing
. But DD could for sure be remainded again. What about us telling him that we fix the issues for him?

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives.
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.

//G. K. Chesterton
Marine
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:32:06 PM
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Hi,

1) Who can play?

I can play Smile

2) When to play?

Tuesdays at 20.00 sounds good for me, but i can other days too if needed.

3) What do you want to play?


US
FRA (-> goes US)
UK
I´m not so much for Germany and Russia(I have not played them so much,so i lack the experience for them).

4) House rules?


I have some questions.
Do France have to be human until they fall and can they be allowed to be played by the AI earlier?
Why can´t the USA be allowed to be played by a human from start(I know that some think it´s boring to do it in the beginning). Is it because the Axis wants to trade with them or what is the reason behind it?
How will we do with coups and guarantee independences?
I will be coming with more on this subject.

/Marine
JASGripen
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 3:50:48 PM
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As I said, I like if all of the game is used and I do not see coups as very imbalanced ( it could be better though). Sure one could play the Us earlier, But the German need trade and an AI US is good for that. But it can be solved with other house rules if anyone insists on the US. The current rule is more like a leftover from HoI2 so that the US did not enter to soon.

Of course France player could bolt earlier but I do think it is imortant to have an effective french player until its fall as it prolongs that war for Germany and bleeds it more too.

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives.
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.

//G. K. Chesterton
Redcoat
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 4:06:42 PM
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Im up for another game.

Tuesdays at 2000 works for me.

I wouldnt mind playing UK, however I am flexible.


Regarding the US. If the problem is trade why not let US be a human and force him to put his trade to the AI. That should solve that problem. As a player it must be very annoying to enter the US after a number of years and not have directed the builds or the research as you would like. So I do understand the desire to begin playing the US early.

Marche pour les Suédois (Narvamarschen)
Marine
Posted: Wednesday, May 30, 2012 8:09:47 PM
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I agree with Redcoat,.
Why can´t the US player just put Trade on AI and then when they enter the war ,they turn the AI off and play it human. We can also have a house rule that the USA are not allowed to enter the war before either being attacked or until after Dec 1941.

/Marine
JASGripen
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 10:47:50 AM
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We are in control of the game so sure, we can have both USSR and US Trade on AI, for the USSR at least up to 1939.

Devilddread (he who made the Common weapons DLC) said he would fix practicals for that dlc when I echoed Alex sentiment here for DD. Smile

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives.
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.

//G. K. Chesterton
Marine
Posted: Thursday, May 31, 2012 5:55:57 PM
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I´m glad to hear that Devildread will do something to the CWoWW2 DLC.
I will have no problems having the trade on AI as the USA.
I think that the USA should not be able to join the Allies before DEC 41 if not attacked before of course.
I would also more than anything else play USA if it´s okay, but maybe there is someone else to that would like to do it. Time will have to tell and the rules.

/Marine
Praetori
Posted: Saturday, June 02, 2012 12:59:10 AM
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I just went through a couple of 3.06 Beta as the US and Germany to test the AI (currently 1942 US) and OMG.
The AI is behaving really good although Computer controlled Japan on hardest setting is rivaling Alex latest conquests in the MP game.
The US is incredibly strong given a human '36 start even though I did try to play historically.
Manpower for the US is a serious issue as in FTM vanilla but if you know what you're doing it's a scary Major with over 400+ IC by the time war happens.
If 3.06 stays as it is we need to think long and hard about the US as they're a game winner on their own.
As Germany the French seems formidable enough. I couldn't keep up with the historical pace of the war even though Poland fell quickly. The BEF, French and most notably Belgian units really put up a fight. I actually had Belgian forces left to defeat in France once Vichy triggered.
Overall the beta patch seems wonderful even though I played on the vanilla map (which is sub-optimal IMO).
JASGripen
Posted: Sunday, June 03, 2012 7:54:18 PM
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Perhaps US from 36 is to good for a mp game as it is. Well there are countries enougv to choose from.

I have suggested some changes which makes GEr stronger, we will see if they make it.

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives.
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.

//G. K. Chesterton
Praetori
Posted: Monday, June 04, 2012 3:52:46 PM
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JASGripen wrote:
Perhaps US from 36 is to good for a mp game as it is. Well there are countries enougv to choose from.

I have suggested some changes which makes GEr stronger, we will see if they make it.


Problem is that Japan also seems very strong in 3.06. All three 3.06 SP games (currently in my second US game) Japan is simply steamrolling Asia.
No player for the US early on could cause issues as the US really needs a human player for it to be a challenge for Japan (IMO).
Though there's issues with that as well. You can powergame the US and go for marines and armor of doom and simply ignore all other techs other than fighters/CAGs, CV/CL, armor and small-arms at which point they're unstoppable though bland.

One funny thing though, beside Barbarossa in late '42 the game has been balanced and pretty historical (bar Spain and Persia to the Axis in late '42).
Marine
Posted: Wednesday, June 06, 2012 6:49:32 PM
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Maybe we shall wait for this or?

Hearts of Iron III Their Finest Hour a new Expansion that comes this Autumn

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/content.php?991-E3-2012-New-Expansion-for-Hearts-of-Iron-III-Announced!

/Marine
Alex_brunius
Posted: Thursday, June 07, 2012 10:37:57 AM
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Guess I will probably postpone any modding plans until after the expansion is out then. :/
If not for any other reason then that I think the time is much better spent beta testing.

And I'm looking forward to play the expansion with you as soon as its out ofc!
Praetori
Posted: Friday, June 08, 2012 9:35:21 AM
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Marine wrote:
Maybe we shall wait for this or?

Hearts of Iron III Their Finest Hour a new Expansion that comes this Autumn

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/content.php?991-E3-2012-New-Expansion-for-Hearts-of-Iron-III-Announced!

/Marine


Truth to be told I'm not expecting the expansion to be stable or balanced enough for MP until late in the year.
IMO we should roll with the official 3.06 patch for the next campaign as it could be winter before everyone is fully immersed in the new "stable/balanced" expansion although I will of course play with it if everyone else wants to.

edit: If anyone is playing 3.06. Have you noticed that support brigades now seem to take an ungodly amount of damage compared to the front-line brigades?
I don't know if I'm doing something wrong but it seems a bit... off.
JASGripen
Posted: Sunday, June 10, 2012 10:59:30 AM
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We do not have to decide if we play 3.06 or the expansion yet. Let us have the summer pass, then we'll see at what time we as player can mobilise for gaming and also see how that date compare with TFH's release date or state if released). If we start a game at the end of August/beginning of September then HoI3 4.01 or 4.02 will be out when we are finished. I agree that we might be wise to steer away from 4.00 for MP gaming.

So I advice that we either play 3.06 or 4.01. With that choice 3.06 is a better choice as we do not have to wait as long to start playing.



The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives.
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.

//G. K. Chesterton
Marine
Posted: Saturday, August 18, 2012 8:28:12 PM
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Hi,

The summer is soon over Sad

It seems like patch 3.062 is going to be released later than I hoped maybe even just before TFH is getting released ,so maybe we should wait for TFH instead.
I´m really starting to like the new stuff in that expansion.
Of coarse it will have to be 4.01 then, since that patch would turn up pretty fast after TFH is out and have most bugs fixed.

It would also be nice to know how we are going to do with the rule about what troops are going to be built as reserves and not?
Also if someone is to be allowed to start as the USA from 1936 or are they to strong for that and a France or China player take over at the appropriate time?

We just have to wait and see where we all are when the time comes.Smile

/Marine
JASGripen
Posted: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 9:01:12 AM
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Yes it seems to me that TFH and 3.602 are worked on at the same time not sequentially. So with that impression it seems better to wait for TFH which might be released at the same time as 3.602.

The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives.
The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected.

//G. K. Chesterton
Marine
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 4:33:17 PM
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Hi I just saw on Paradox Homepage that TFH(Their Finest Hour expansion for HOI3) is going to be released on 26/9-12

Link:
http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/hearts-of-iron-iii-their-finest-hour

So then it is not so long wait left and i guess that 4.01 will come then in about a month after 4.00, so maybe we can start to play in late October on 4.01 Smile

/Marine
Praetori
Posted: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 6:54:11 PM
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Marine wrote:

It would also be nice to know how we are going to do with the rule about what troops are going to be built as reserves and not?
/Marine


I would vouch for some variant of the rules that juv95's 3.06 MP game uses.

Quote:
Reserve rules:
You can build reserves with two year draft or more if infantry based (INF, GAR, MIL, CAV, MP, MOT, ENG) reserve units are allowed.
You can not build any hard or "elite" units like ARM, SP, TD, MEC, MAR, MTN, PARA from scratch as reserves ever
You may upgrade reserve units from the starting OOB in 1936 to the forbidden units but newly built reserves may only be upgraded into units that can be built as reserves from scratch ie. INF, MOT and CAV etc.
1 Para Brigade per 10 base IC, rounded up (except Minors, they can build 3 Brigades even if no IC match) (Ex. If Russia has 161 base IC. It may have a maximum of 161/10 = 16,1 (round ed up to 17) para brigades deployed or in the build queue. If you go below this number (conquest, strat bombings) you may keep that para limit for sake of simplicity.


The only thing I would change is ENG and MOT as it can be used to reserve-exploit by the USSR.


Marine wrote:
Hi I just saw on Paradox Homepage that TFH(Their Finest Hour expansion for HOI3) is going to be released on 26/9-12

Link:
http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/hearts-of-iron-iii-their-finest-hour

So then it is not so long wait left and i guess that 4.01 will come then in about a month after 4.00, so maybe we can start to play in late October on 4.01 Smile

/Marine


Well it's still August. I wouldn't mind starting sooner but I do agree that it would be sweet to wait for TFH (even though I'm seriously concerned about MP balance with all that they've changed).

/Jens
Alex_brunius
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:57:26 PM
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Praetori wrote:
Well it's still August. I wouldn't mind starting sooner but I do agree that it would be sweet to wait for TFH (even though I'm seriously concerned about MP balance with all that they've changed).

/Jens


Same here, I vote we go for TFH 1.0 or 1.1 if released within a week or so.

Not so worried about balance, were all going to be newbies there playing around with the added features like happy amateurs. Let's talk balance for future campaigns when it had a few patches and we have seen what they can do what on the battlefield Smile
Redcoat
Posted: Thursday, August 23, 2012 9:50:54 PM
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Concerning versions of the game.
I do not mind either choice we make (old or new version), I will adept. However, Starting on an old version while waiting for a new is not a problem for me. We always have the option of aborting an ongoing game - that is under the term shit-happens! That way we are able to test the new version before beginning a new campaign. Anyway before deciding the version, it is more intreresting to decide who plays what country and under what general house rules. This will probably take some time before we agree on so that might solve the problem, if it takes a lot of time the new version might already be up and running!

My main interest is not to start a campaign in a game that neither of us have tried, not due to unbalance, but rather due to bugs! In my experience these are not uncommon in new versions of HOI. I hate to play a game when one payer wins due to an existing bug in the game. It is not only unfair bur even a waste of my time. So, please lets start discussing house rules and countries before deciding on which version! Then we might have to revise the house rules depending on the version. But that is life!!!

It is suppose to fun at the same time, right?

My 2 Cents

Marche pour les Suédois (Narvamarschen)
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