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Alex_brunius
Posted: Thursday, February 21, 2013 6:28:53 PM
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juv95hrn wrote:
Not sure how Tirpitz managed to charge my CTF and sink one modern CV and damage one to 1%. Maybe there were subs there? All other ships were out of ORG so shouldn't the CVs have retreated since they are faster than the SHBB?

Not sure how 3 Italian SS could sail into the full Mediterranean fleet and sink 2 LC when I have CVL, CV, DD protecting them, all ahead of time in ASW. The result of those sinkings (as impossible as that would have been in vanilla) will now result in me not being able to evacuate troops from Greece as planned. That makes it twice as annoying.

I'm honestly getting very tired of SS being too powerful in this campaign and being used exclusively as a vs. surface ship wunderwaffe you can do nothing about. Slightly unbalanced would be fine but it is really impossible to counter their hit and run tactics with their current stats. I'm honestly annoyed with this happening over and over. We clearly made a mistake when setting the stats. Shouldn't we try to work around the problem to find a solution instead of exploiting it to the max? SS should be able to outperform surface vessels once in a while. Now they do it in every encounter.

I agree, I have not gone overboard with sub production to be honest, and also have not grouped them in bigger packs the 2-3 to try to not exploit them, but I agree with them being wunderwaffes now.

If you want to I can give you extra time to evacuate Greece in good order.



To have the subs only win once in a while however I think we need to change them back to rely on surprise chance which means they can only be used effectively against warships when on patrol mission (since convoy raiding never triggers surprise).
Praetori
Posted: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:09:58 PM
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Alex_brunius wrote:

To have the subs only win once in a while however I think we need to change them back to rely on surprise chance which means they can only be used effectively against warships when on patrol mission (since convoy raiding never triggers surprise).


I think less ORG or more ORG damage to subs and a bit faster regain would do much to simulate how subs ran out of torpedos and oxygen while fighting faster warships so I wouldn't want to go over the top in the other direction either.
I like subs being dangerous as it forces a much more realistic type of naval warfare. On the other hand they feel over the top right now as previously stated (even the crappy Soviet subs have been able to commit in regular naval battles and survive bombing despite Regia Aeronautica's best efforts to sink them). Italian subs taking on a pretty top-notch royal navy battlefleet and walzing away after sinking several high-value units feels a bit off (had the subs been sunk by vengeful destroyers meanwhile, the situation might have been more realistic).
I don't know if upping the ASW techs would help leveling the playingfield. The issue is more that subs Should be able to hit and run (and with luck sinking a badly defended high-value target) but not slug it out with a superior force.
Alex_brunius
Posted: Thursday, February 21, 2013 9:41:17 PM
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Anyways I think we should switch sides for the next campaign. Id love another epic east front battle with me as USSR and Juv or Praetori playing Germany Smile
Praetori
Posted: Tuesday, February 26, 2013 9:36:18 PM
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Slight heads-up. I'm on a workshop this week and it's been pretty long days so far so I might be late tomorrow Wednesday (should be able to start at 2000hrs though).
juv95hrn
Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 4:49:45 PM
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I'm playing Black Ice 2.0 (it just came out) on Very Hard and GROFAZ settings. It is fun and has a lot of changes made that we are looking for. I suggest everyone that has time takes a look at it.

I'm not sure how well subs work in it but I lost very few and sunk a lot of convos (Im germany) but almost no warships. They have lots more air planes.

Maybe something for a MP campaign in the future. Maybe something to give inspiration to out MP Mod. I must admit vanilla feels rather "bleak" after all the details added to this mod. How well balanced it is I don't know.
juv95hrn
Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 5:08:54 PM
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Praetori wrote:
I think less ORG or more ORG damage to subs and a bit faster regain would do much to simulate how subs ran out of torpedos and oxygen while fighting faster warships so I wouldn't want to go over the top in the other direction either.
I like subs being dangerous as it forces a much more realistic type of naval warfare. On the other hand they feel over the top right now as previously stated (even the crappy Soviet subs have been able to commit in regular naval battles and survive bombing despite Regia Aeronautica's best efforts to sink them). Italian subs taking on a pretty top-notch royal navy battlefleet and walzing away after sinking several high-value units feels a bit off (had the subs been sunk by vengeful destroyers meanwhile, the situation might have been more realistic).
I don't know if upping the ASW techs would help leveling the playingfield. The issue is more that subs Should be able to hit and run (and with luck sinking a badly defended high-value target) but not slug it out with a superior force.


I think we all agree. But Subs come out on top 19/20 encounters (20/20 actually). I can't do shit about Italy stacking all its subs and using them only as a death star usrface fleet like in HOI1-HOI2 fashion. I don't mind losing 1000s of convoys (Attrition of maybe 15-25 IC permanently) and 0-2 DDs (maybe 3 CVLs is a bit much but its still ok) in in encoutners in the battle of atlantic but occasionnally a sub should sink even here. I have sunk 0 so far. Hull 3-4 (Honestly Im afraid that hull 3 migh make them *too* easy to sink again) should instead of 5 should take care of that. But when used like in the Med as a concentrated anti-surface fleet there is no counter to it. Maybe lower org should balance things out.

A house rule for stacking limits for subs might be just the right thing. 2 subs max in a province (so leaders can survive). If Italy will go with this I will not stack all my 9 subs and use them against remaining surface fleets (what little remains of them).

Also of course I dont know what happens when you research and equip the 1943 whatever ASW techs. MAybe subs dies like flies then. But in any case we need to scale down the early war sub invulnarability *a bit* as is done in 3.0.





EDIT:

And we need House Rules for invasions/embarkations since CTRL+click ( why was the this removed!?!!?) evacuations are blocked now and the bugginess of retreats. My suggestions is that you have to defeat the ships waiting outside. (Black Ice has raised max shore bombardment to 75 btw). Maybe not being allowed to attack beach-heads would solve it? Being ping-ponged to death wth shiips waiting offshore and not able to evacuate isn't fun, WAD nor fair. After all Dunkirk managed to get +300k soldiers off beaches in a couple of days. You can't do that in HOI3 now unless you are lucky enough to defend a single beach province. If you have more than one you are screwed more or less.
Alex_brunius
Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:05:09 PM
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juv95hrn wrote:
I think we all agree. But Subs come out on top 19/20 encounters (20/20 actually). I can't do shit about Italy stacking all its subs and using them only as a death star usrface fleet like in HOI1-HOI2 fashion. I don't mind losing 1000s of convoys (Attrition of maybe 15-25 IC permanently) and 0-2 DDs (maybe 3 CVLs is a bit much but its still ok) in in encoutners in the battle of atlantic but occasionnally a sub should sink even here. I have sunk 0 so far.

According to my ships sunk list Germany lost 3 subs so far, 2 sunk by UK and 1 by USA.

The same logs also list Italy having lost 8 sub flotillas, all sunk by UK DDs, CV and NAVs.

So actually seems you are on a good way to clear at least the Mediterranean from submarine threats.

juv95hrn wrote:

A house rule for stacking limits for subs might be just the right thing. 2 subs max in a province (so leaders can survive). If Italy will go with this I will not stack all my 9 subs and use them against remaining surface fleets (what little remains of them).

Also of course I dont know what happens when you research and equip the 1943 whatever ASW techs. MAybe subs dies like flies then. But in any case we need to scale down the early war sub invulnarability *a bit* as is done in 3.0.

Even if It does make me sad to add a houserule (the original purpose of the mod was to remove house rules not add them), I do agree. Let's vote on it on TS and have it enter effect right away.


juv95hrn wrote:


And we need House Rules for invasions/embarkations since CTRL+click ( why was the this removed!?!!?) evacuations are blocked now and the bugginess of retreats. My suggestions is that you have to defeat the ships waiting outside. (Black Ice has raised max shore bombardment to 75 btw). Maybe not being allowed to attack beach-heads would solve it? Being ping-ponged to death wth shiips waiting offshore and not able to evacuate isn't fun, WAD nor fair. After all Dunkirk managed to get +300k soldiers off beaches in a couple of days. You can't do that in HOI3 now unless you are lucky enough to defend a single beach province. If you have more than one you are screwed more or less.

Control + Click evacuations works just fine when I test it in Singleplayer and our game. Are you sure your troops are not in combat or out of supplies, and that there is enough rooms on the TPs targeted?

I can raise shore bombardment, but have chosen not to so far due to our earlier experiences in the Pacific war last game when attacking marines had a clear advantage (given equal numbers) thanks to shore bombardment. That was simply wrong.
Marine
Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 6:53:22 PM
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I found a old thread started by me it seems when i goggled about subs.
Here it is :http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?422737-How-many-DD-SS-in-a-flotilla
I also saw that Alex is in the tread Smile
According to that article and some research I suggest that a sub force should only have two flotillas in a single province.
So as you said lets talk about in on TS and vote.

/Marine
Praetori
Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 7:47:01 PM
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Alex_brunius wrote:
Control + Click evacuations works just fine when I test it in Singleplayer and our game. Are you sure your troops are not in combat or out of supplies, and that there is enough rooms on the TPs targeted?


I can confirm that Crt+ Click works in this game as I evacuated several units along the Baltic coast that way (although all but ONE were HQ units that managed to escape, Soviet style for sure).


On a completely different matter.
I will be visiting Poland for work next week and I'm not entirely confident on my chances of playing next wednesday as Hotel Internet connections are notoriously unreliable. Anyhow I won't be able to HOST the game at least so someone else will need to do the hosting even IF I manage to attend (I should know on Monday or Tuesday already).

The contingency plan is to remote through my server here and setup a host and then join the SU with the server as a second player but since I only have ONE HOI3 license I don't know if that'll work.
juv95hrn
Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2013 8:28:38 PM
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I mean Ctrl+click *retreats*. Sorry for being unclear. When retreating you have to wait until you run out of org and then only move to TRPs if there are no other land provinces available.


"The same logs also list Italy having lost 8 sub flotillas, all sunk by UK DDs, CV and NAVs."

6 of these were sunk in the same battle vs. a gigantic surface group when sallying from Tirana without org and at very low health. If these had fought under normal circumstances they would never have been sunk. I have sunk 2 Italian subs with normal ASW tactics. The other 6 are just a flux and can't really be counted in favour the mods current balance unfortunately.

I am at a conference the 13/3 and will be late home. Maybe 20.30-21.00. We can still play after that though.

EDIT:

No TS, no server. We are running late right?
Praetori
Posted: Thursday, February 28, 2013 1:03:13 PM
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So no game March 6.
Next scheduled game is Wednesday March 13 from 20:30~ish.
juv95hrn
Posted: Friday, March 01, 2013 1:41:35 AM
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I will be home 21.15-21.20 13/3 unless the train is delayed. Not sure if you think this is too late but I would like to play.

I have reported the new retreat bug in teh beta forums and managed to locate saves where the units are identified.

About 3.75 divisions including HARM, Gurkhas and MTN units went to that province to die for unknown reasons.

Since Italy didn't manage to contend the evacuation sea zone at all and I now have plentiful transport capacity available (to where the units should have retreated) I have taken the libery of editing back these units south of Athens with the exact values as when they were retreating 14 days ago.

I suspect this is the same bug that appears when a units retreats from one combat into another, and then from that combat into a third combat. I think I saw the same behaviour outside barcelona but then the 3rd retreat province was a transport ship so it is hard to compare. The AI will never push you hard enough to retreat into so many consecutive combat provinces (at least not normally) so in a way Im not surprised this hasn't been discovered yet.

If you feel it is fair I would edit back Tirpitz back into Cherbourg (due to the latency sissues) but I doubt she would get out alive but I would be happy to do it because I really feel that major losses should come from game play and not from bugs and latency problems, etc.
Alex_brunius
Posted: Saturday, March 02, 2013 10:08:02 AM
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juv95hrn wrote:
If you feel it is fair I would edit back Tirpitz back into Cherbourg (due to the latency sissues) but I doubt she would get out alive but I would be happy to do it because I really feel that major losses should come from game play and not from bugs and latency problems, etc.

That's not needed really, Tirpitz was trying to steam out of the port for the 5:th or 6:th time now down to 8% strength, and had failed all previous times. Does not look like any ship were meant to make it out alive of Ironbottom Port Smile
Praetori
Posted: Friday, March 08, 2013 8:05:42 PM
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juv95hrn wrote:
I will be home 21.15-21.20 13/3 unless the train is delayed. Not sure if you think this is too late but I would like to play.

I have reported the new retreat bug in teh beta forums and managed to locate saves where the units are identified.

About 3.75 divisions including HARM, Gurkhas and MTN units went to that province to die for unknown reasons.

Since Italy didn't manage to contend the evacuation sea zone at all and I now have plentiful transport capacity available (to where the units should have retreated) I have taken the libery of editing back these units south of Athens with the exact values as when they were retreating 14 days ago.

I suspect this is the same bug that appears when a units retreats from one combat into another, and then from that combat into a third combat. I think I saw the same behaviour outside barcelona but then the 3rd retreat province was a transport ship so it is hard to compare. The AI will never push you hard enough to retreat into so many consecutive combat provinces (at least not normally) so in a way Im not surprised this hasn't been discovered yet.

If you feel it is fair I would edit back Tirpitz back into Cherbourg (due to the latency sissues) but I doubt she would get out alive but I would be happy to do it because I really feel that major losses should come from game play and not from bugs and latency problems, etc.


Regarding the retreat-bug I think that's exactly what we had when a Soviet ARM division went berzerk north of Rostov previously and retreated to enemy-controlled areas. I think there's some kind of issue with how the ownership of a province is checked, but it's a guess.

I'm ok with playing 21:30 but I'll be away on a business trip so we'll probably need to use a different host (TS server will be working though).
Praetori
Posted: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 3:38:01 PM
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I'm probably a no-go for tonights game. Out travelling for work and the bloody hotel Internet is so crappy I can hardly load DN.se.
I tried connecting to the TS server at home but i got disconnected at times so I have NO hope on Hoi3 wokring with the Hotel internet as it stands.
The hotel staff has been kind enough to re-set the routers a couple of times but so far it's a no-go.

If we have a Soviet backup player I'm ok with you playing without me.
seseo
Posted: Wednesday, March 13, 2013 7:41:28 PM
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Hi Everyone

I really hope we can find a replacement for soviet then. So we can play HoI tonight


//Louise
juv95hrn
Posted: Thursday, March 14, 2013 7:43:18 PM
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Maybe a replacement session before next wednesday to get rid of the HOI3 MP itch? :-)
Anders
Posted: Thursday, March 14, 2013 8:00:37 PM
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Hey there, I haven't got much experience at all with HoI3, but I'd like to get some. So, can I play in your game? A minor or coop is fine with me.
When do you play?

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

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I would tend to agree with Anders.

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Praetori
Posted: Monday, March 18, 2013 10:54:41 AM
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Wednesdays between 1930hrs to midnight is the usual slot.
Anders
Posted: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:07:48 PM
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That's doable for me, I recon.
Are you starting a new game soon?

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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juv95hrn
Posted: Monday, March 18, 2013 9:48:05 PM
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Probably when this one is over but as it looks right now this campaign will last many weeks yet before it is decided.
Marine
Posted: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 4:04:40 PM
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I will be a little late around 20.00–20.15.
I hope it will be earlier.

/Marine
Praetori
Posted: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 7:18:46 PM
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Marine wrote:
I will be a little late around 20.00–20.15.
I hope it will be earlier.

/Marine


I'll have the server up by 1930 latest anyhow.
I've got a really bad case of HOI3 withdrawal-syndrome not being able to play for 3weeks straight and need my fix. One Tooth Grin
Marine
Posted: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:19:15 PM
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TS is not working?
Praetori
Posted: Wednesday, March 20, 2013 8:42:34 PM
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Marine wrote:
TS is not working?


Is now. Big Grin
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