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oddman
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:07:29 PM
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Here's how it would have panned out:

We would have made KoMgolia peace out with Punjab, giving Burma and Tibet back to us.
Russia would have switched sides, ideally trapping the majority of African armies.
Africa would have been made to accept peace, keeping territorial integrity in Africa but acknowledging Catalan and German overlordship. Any power resisting the resulting world order would have been crushed.

(We might have partitioned Russia afterward anyway, because Blayne can't be trusted.)

Enter: Pax Germano-Catalanum! Science, social liberalism and free enterprise for everyone!

That said, well played, everyone. Just surviving up to here was quite a feat.
And kudos to the Africans for trying to oppose the unstoppable tide for so long Smile

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell
Gollevainen
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:12:52 PM
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Now after retrospect, we would have agreed on peace which we would have lost Europe (meaning croatia, Italia and Poland) and even Russia, but never for peace which would have ment loss of our own lands nor to vassalization. We would have fought to the death!! (but this was alot more convinient)



Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
oddman
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:22:15 PM
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Gollevainen wrote:
Now after retrospect, we would have agreed on peace which we would have lost Europe (meaning croatia, Italia and Poland) and even Russia, but never for peace which would have ment loss of our own lands nor to vassalization. We would have fought to the death!! (but this was alot more convinient)


With your armies in Russia destroyed? Vassalization would have been reasonable. Or at least admitting our side has won Wink.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell
jodokus
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:28:52 PM
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destroying divisions in loud talks! ha, Ive killed 1000 enemy ones soBig Grin

anyways, gg

danomite
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:37:55 PM
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Grumble Grumble Curse of the Alarm Clock...

2nd time the game has ended for me cause the alarm was set wrong!

Anyhow I didn't think Africa was anywhere near defeat. For the first time it was fighting on its own soil, but once they consolidated their front lines abit and got troops from else where to deal with the cata landings I think it would have been fine. + Japan still had huge potential on land.

Eventually Ger/American alliance would have probably still won, Naval dominance, atleast on par land forces, and more offensive air power. While africans had a ton of interceptors, but there were still plenty of places in the world where there was just one airfield for hundreds of miles, where planes could bomb unopposed.

It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
Gollevainen
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:42:02 PM
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Yeah I mean we could have prolonged this quite long. But I guess the decision was merely in bigger perspective. We lost in the long term when we couldn't use the momentum to crush Germany. Plan B was the last desperate attempt to change the tide but it didn't went on that succesfully. Thus the war would have not been able to win for us.

So as the enemy wanted to vasalize us and we wouldn't have agreed on it, instead of fighting for 5 years and eventually ending up with that result we decided to just end and proclaim Germany-Catalonia as winners.



Irsh Faq wrote:
I've noted with Golle a trend of stirring up as much drama publicly as he can whenever he's up to something shady in the background. Presumably its a smokescreen strategy.
jodokus
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:43:38 PM
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no, the game was over the moment we realised Africa cannot break the Catalunian-german alliance.
We would have been able to hold on untill infinity, but since the perma-alliance would have also lasted till infinity, there is better things to spend one's saturdays
you play the game you set, and perma-alliancing won this time, sadly the african perma-alliance came out the seccond one, despite in eu3 it still seemed otherwise.

oddman
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:50:40 PM
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I agree with Jod and Golle here.

Except for that Germany and I would have been the first with nukes - but we are happy to let you have first place among the losers Wink

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell
jodokus
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 5:56:10 PM
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one nuke couldnt' have changed the thing much... say, five nukes could have propably done something, but by that time, we would have had our nukes as well, so...
In the end, it would have come just down to the fact that germany and catalunia can outbuild everything we could, and if we could destroy their troops, they could replace them easily... Like in one of my USA games, I lost 187 divisions total, and still won, couse I could outbuild the axis nations.

danomite
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 6:09:49 PM
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jodokus wrote:

In the end, it would have come just down to the fact that germany and catalunia can outbuild everything we could, and if we could destroy their troops, they could replace them easily... Like in one of my USA games, I lost 187 divisions total, and still won, couse I could outbuild the axis nations.
Highly disagree.
Looking at IC is mis-leading, the other side was much more heavily invested in free-trade than we were so they're relative production power was much higher than it appeared.

It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
jodokus
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 6:13:34 PM
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and so was Kongo...Only ethiopia of us had the planned economy, and ethiopia was the smallest one of our economies.
our combined production IC was propably about 200 IC, whit ethiopia having the doctrines for tanks and ships that took most IC anyways.
And since I was planned economy, all production came in expense of Upgrades, and specially my infantry units were almost all just 1939 units, with no immediate free IC scheduled for their upgrades, since I needed to pour down more and more tanks and ships to match the germans and catalunians. All of Kongo's production IC went for the reactors that we also needed to match

Had we had some american nation on our side would have been the sole case in this gamesetting that we could have ever broken that perma-alliance, but we didn't so we had to use the jump-start to warproduction we had. It lasted untill 1944, kinda like in real life axis nationsBig Grin


oddman
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 7:17:35 PM
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Looking at the save from your side:
You guys are screwed.
I was one-and-a-half nuke techs ahead, as was Fiv. We both had level 4 reactors. You just started yours. Your TC was overloaded already.
You have 5 capital ships remaining: 3 BBs & 2 CVLs, all Japanese/Punjabi, who were about to drop out. I have 17 carriers (all with modern CAGs); Fiv has 8; even Dano has 1. We have a massive amount of TRA capacity, forcing you to keep garrisoning your beaches whereas we don't have to.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell
jodokus
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 7:21:22 PM
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well partially the transport capacity overload is due the reinforcment redeployments, but Yes, it was a burden all the time.
The lack of navies is also transparent... we basicly had only those capital ships that Germany gave us in the first war after that first war... None of them I was able to repair to maxium strength before forced to use them against carriers.

Perhaps at this point can someone post the SP unit statistics as screenie?

jodokus
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 8:01:56 PM
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So basicly, had we gotten our air orged up... you guys wouldn't have had any air left Big Grin
other than that, my 61 tanks stands out only favorable comparision against the allies

danomite
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:08:45 PM
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oddman wrote:
Looking at the save from your side:
You guys are screwed.
I was one-and-a-half nuke techs ahead, as was Fiv. We both had level 4 reactors. You just started yours. Your TC was overloaded already.
You have 5 capital ships remaining: 3 BBs & 2 CVLs, all Japanese/Punjabi, who were about to drop out. I have 17 carriers (all with modern CAGs); Fiv has 8; even Dano has 1. We have a massive amount of TRA capacity, forcing you to keep garrisoning your beaches whereas we don't have to.
Yeah honestly I think we were massively over estimating their forces, we were keeping a fair bit in reserve not knowing what you were capable of, but we could have played more aggressively it seems :S
Navy wise I knew more or less what Japan had cause of spies, but I really thought the rest of you would have had something :S

Also someone post damage charts!

It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
Fivoin
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 11:37:56 PM
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No, don't go and end it all while I'm not there!
Anyway, gg well fought.
The Professor
Posted: Saturday, January 12, 2013 11:48:02 PM
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I have some thoughts, but its really difficult to really say what we should have done or whatever so its impossible to know who was right.

Biggest thing I'm surprised at is the lack of psychological warfare, lack of landings in poorly defended but big areas like India would've likely forced Golle and Jodokus to go into panic mode and lose troops in Europe. The landings in Africa had a large effect where they landed to scale down and withdraw some 200 divisions from Europe in a likely fruitless effort to through Spain out of Africa.

Biggest mistake was letting Germany walk relatively unscathed in the first war, I was entirely against the peace that left Germany with more IC than any one of our members because it would be impossible to crack that egg; I felt the second war was winnable given time but "Plan C" happened. As we had good AA gun positions in Poland and Woslovek was a level 10 airfield with level 10 AA and building up its infra slowly.

I had some Railway super artillery and a lot of rocket artillery infantry building so my plan was to pummel the Germans consistently until their positions cracked, since we had the advantage in artillery, likely would've eventually gained air supremacy and had small enough of a front that we didn't need to worry about getting flanked like we were in War 3 that I feel it was more up in the air. But this was never allowed to transpire.

I had frequent truces/unofficial cease fire with KoM that allowed us to focus elsewhere up until the point Punjab started controlling my troops and I couldn't say anything, so no surprise when KoM started to push later on but by then I had bigger issues.

I had long term plans for a fleet of 300 submarines but that got derailed; the biggest issue I think was the negligence showed by Golle and Jodokus when it came to logistics, I think that costed us the game.

War 1: Very little consideration was put into the German bombing of our infrastructure, especially around Kiev and I wasn't getting any help in building up the airfields, as the whole Kongoese and Ethiopian army in my territory was forcing me to use 60% of my IC just to break even on supplies and they refused to pay their own bills. Insisting that Russia not build ANYTHING and just pay for supplies, I ignored this and tried my best to build what I could, it is a surprise that I managed to get what I eventually got, 4 Super Submarines, 3 Rail Arty, several rocket artillery, some upgraded militia, 4 intercepters, seevral builded up airfields and AA positions that would've been a good position with the right capability.

As a result we had difficulty moving around and preparing for followup attacks as our org frequently depleted and didn't recover fast enough, Mighty G entirely ignored me about this and insisted all he needed was numbers and he could break through GLEBEKI of all places where Oddman I think had a super stack of troops sitting on, and Mighty G felt it was no big deal.

Mighty G also wanted to IGNORE our opening in the south and focus on the north, like we had a breakthrough and he plum didn't want to take advantage of it, Golle and Jodokus also did not beleive for a second that we could take advantage of it, and refused to believe me when I said some 70 to 100 Germans were encircleable. If there was ever a time for aggression and guts this was it but the chance was allowed to slip away for a compromise temporary peace that didn't actually improve out situation very much.

As having a very large German and Spanish army deep in Russia likely made the TC issues ginormous at the time and a rapid retreat even more so (as it burns up supplies and oil and puts a greater strain on your rails). It was a relatively simple plan, move the tanks through and race to the Romanian coast, have my infantry attack the Germans head on to pin them down so they can't move and once the tanks are in position and the Germans out of supply begin to crush the pocket. As the Germans didn't have a port there would be no supplies.

War 2: Golle build a bazillion interceptors, he flipped out as he intended fighters but intercepters are better anyways, I was ignored here but Golle had no choice but to follow through at this point. However NO AIRFIELDS so they were useless until maybe the last few months of War 3 and never saw use in War 2 as Plan B happened before they agreed to move planes to Poland.

War 3 is a giant meh, apparently their tanks got redeployed to their capital when they wp'ed USSR and so they ruined their timing, probably wouldn't have helped as I'm pretty sure Fivoin likely wasn't going to pull a Blayne.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
BlitzMartinDK
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 2:40:46 AM
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danomite wrote:
Yeah honestly I think we were massively over estimating their forces, we were keeping a fair bit in reserve not knowing what you were capable of, but we could have played more aggressively it seems :S
Navy wise I knew more or less what Japan had cause of spies, but I really thought the rest of you would have had something :S

Also someone post damage charts!


..wasn't those reserves also about keeping your alliance-partners honest? -not only cata/germany, but also California? (or being ready to exploit some sort of opening Big Grin )

As it is now, there really isn't any winner...Other than von R, that is!
danomite
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 3:17:35 AM
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BlitzMartinDK wrote:
..wasn't those reserves also about keeping your alliance-partners honest? -not only cata/germany, but also California? (or being ready to exploit some sort of opening Big Grin )

As it is now, there really isn't any winner...Other than von R, that is!
Maybe earlier on that was true, but in the most recent wars it was just us being overly cautious. Remember some of our earlier wars were very nearly a much worse defeat in Europe, and we did not want to repeat that.

It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
BlitzMartinDK
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 1:18:15 PM
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danomite wrote:
Maybe earlier on that was true, but in the most recent wars it was just us being overly cautious. Remember some of our earlier wars were very nearly a much worse defeat in Europe, and we did not want to repeat that.


yes. Of course you have to say that. Then maybe in NEXT game they will leave their ungarded back to you! Devil

edit : And serius : it is kinda sad to see this end with no single player as winner, because the alliances got so "unbreakable" somewhere. It's all nice and good to be friends, i mean, but somehow an epic backstab by, say, California on Cata (grabbing a hefty peace of South America perhabs? -and of course your fair share of NA -) would have been more fun?

Also, what is a little bacstabbing between real friends? Big Grin
Chogquir
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 4:53:36 PM
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cool stuff, gg.

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High Elder Ike
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 8:27:13 PM
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Took you long enough.

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Irsh Faq
Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:48:43 AM
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Why on earth did the victors not fight it out among themselves next.

Emperor of Ethiopia, High King of Ceylon, Pharaoh of Alexandria, Sultan of Arabia, Prince of Antioch and Damascus, Lord Protector of the Tamil Coast, Maharaja of Gujarat, Bhatara of Java and Sumatra, Archduke of Australia, Captain of the Cape of Storms, Autocrat of Carthage, Sea Lord of the East Pacific, Caliph of Baghdad, and Defender of the Ark of the Covenant.
The Professor
Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 7:50:57 AM
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Because it was a well known fact that they were never going to do this, that the goal from the beginning was to end the game as soon as possible in order to "win" as a group. Otherwise Dano, Oddman or Fivoin, one of them would have backstabbed the other at some point way sooner.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Irsh Faq
Posted: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:37:47 AM
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If Odd and Fiv were going to stick together till they had no other rivals, that's one thing (and yeah, that was clear enough five hundred years ago). It's about after that that I am asking.

What I don't actually understand is why you guys ended early without a single dominant nation - that is, after Cata and Germany defeated their rivals, but before they determined the hegemon between the two of them. Did AOD turn out to suck? (I admit back when I was still in the game I was growing a bit disenchanted with it as I came to be familiar with the, IMO, pretty serious, weaknesses of the game, and if I had it to do again I'd have voted for hoi3 or plain Arma). Still I was kind of looking forward to watching the Ger-Cata war after Africa was beaten.

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