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Great Game V: Prisoners of the Earth, bound are the earth Options · View
Anders
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 9:39:16 PM
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King of Men wrote:
can we place Blayne on one end of the map and oddman on the other?

A delay of two game generations, at most.


"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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The Professor
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 9:39:17 PM
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Sounds like a plan, we can merge the threads and I've already begun pm'ing everyone whose expressed interest in the past, everyone on my list is about 26 players, not including the current crop of AoDers, if we can get everyone that is maybe 35 people in Europe.

And then the era of the Blobs is over.

I'm only a little sketchy on the exact number you've given (maybe instead I send the post to you and Dano for approval and then post an edited revised version?) but, can that limit only kick in once we start? I would like us to try to settle things regarding the converter ahead of time.

As for map location, I've had my eye on an artifical country in central Russia, can't get farther than that.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
Frosty
Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 9:40:21 PM
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King of Men wrote:
So this sort of thing is precisely why I resigned from being GM; it gives me ulcers. Is there, perhaps, some compromise we can reach, such that everyone plays with nobody's fun spoiled by drama? For example, can we place Blayne on one end of the map and oddman on the other? Require Blayne to make at most two posts of a specified maximum length on any given subject, and then shut up? (Mod enforced, to be sure.) Specify that certain pairs of players are not to communicate except through intermediaries?


I can live with most people.

A cap on 2 posts a day of no more than 150 words would be a solution. GM enforced inbred trait for his king and heirs if he breaks it! Rolleyes

Jakalo wrote:
You sir shame us in the eyes of the rest of the world.

King of Men wrote:
  • Frosty AAR: Stab. Stab, STAB, SLASH, KILL!

  • el_zilcho321 wrote:
    God I hate Frosty.
    Frosty
    Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 9:50:46 PM
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    As an aside, it seems a number of players in your thread are in revolt and want to play sundays.

    Perhaps we can have 2 games yet?

    Jakalo wrote:
    You sir shame us in the eyes of the rest of the world.

    King of Men wrote:
  • Frosty AAR: Stab. Stab, STAB, SLASH, KILL!

  • el_zilcho321 wrote:
    God I hate Frosty.
    The Professor
    Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 9:54:35 PM
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    Only Anders afaik I don't quite know who is "revolting".

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    Anders
    Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:07:39 PM
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    It wqas a suggestion, and I'd like all players to have the opportunity to make their opinion heard.
    Sundays are almost as inconvenient as Saturdays, but at least I don't have any likely engagements then.

    "Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

    King of Men wrote:
    Anders is correct.

    Fivoin wrote:
    Yeah, Anders is right.

    baronbowden wrote:
    I would tend to agree with Anders.

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    oddman
    Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:08:52 PM
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    It's not about the distance on the map; it's about the violation of my sense of justice and reason. Being closer, game-wise, exacerbates it but does not remove it.

    Count me out, then. I've got better things to do with my time anyway. Let me know if you kick Blayne.

    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
    -Bertrand Russell
    Frosty
    Posted: Sunday, January 13, 2013 10:47:10 PM
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    oddman wrote:
    Count me out, then. I've got better things to do with my time anyway. Let me know if you kick Blayne.


    Sad

    As much as I would prefer ponies and rainbows, if there must be a choice my vote is Blayne<Oddman

    (also, are letting Anders in?)

    Jakalo wrote:
    You sir shame us in the eyes of the rest of the world.

    King of Men wrote:
  • Frosty AAR: Stab. Stab, STAB, SLASH, KILL!

  • el_zilcho321 wrote:
    God I hate Frosty.
    King of Men
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 2:20:09 AM
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    Ok. I tried for a compromise; it seems this is impossible. We'll have two games, then. I must say that looking through the diplomatic archives, even cursorily, has somewhat increased my sympathy for oddman's position. Personality clashes are one thing, and bad enough; repeated violation of an honour code is something else again. Especially after getting caught twice.

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
    The Professor
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 2:32:46 AM
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    I would ask then that you move your time than to a different time slot please, as it isn't very fair to create a game specifically to avoid playing with me, and one likely to attempt to draw away members from mine.

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    Frosty
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 2:38:38 AM
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    The Professor wrote:
    I would ask then that you move your time than to a different time slot, as it isn't very fair to create a game specifically to avoid playing with me, and one likely to attempt to draw away members from mine.


    I say we play when people want to play, let's not start any vendettas over this. If the people in KoM's thread want to play saturdays, we play saturday. If the want to play sundays, we play sunday. Etc.

    Should we separate the games on Ederon? It would be confusing to have it all on the same sub-forum.

    Jakalo wrote:
    You sir shame us in the eyes of the rest of the world.

    King of Men wrote:
  • Frosty AAR: Stab. Stab, STAB, SLASH, KILL!

  • el_zilcho321 wrote:
    God I hate Frosty.
    The Professor
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 2:51:12 AM
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    Um that's not accurate, regardless, e: seems KoM has already proposed moving the Saturday game timeslot for his thread so there should not be any issues, sucks, but c'est la vie.

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    High Elder Ike
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 3:59:17 AM
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    I so love internet grudges. They are hilarious.

    [center]"Earthquakes are simply mother nature having a orgasm when she listens to March of the Penguins"
    von_Rundstedt
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 5:53:00 AM
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    Why did you have to post your threads in the CKII forum? Now I can't read the drama.

    Ethiopia used to rule the Waves

    The Professor
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 6:03:21 AM
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    Is Pdox banned in Germany or something? I'll ask Ed for a subforum at some point probably. I'm extending the offer for you to join VonR, I'll be trying to not GM and only organize it, I know your probably highly likely to not but I'll be going for power = power this time, though on the condition that the whole RotW and Europe are on an competitively equal footing on conversion in EU3/4, (very least the same tech group, so Europe doesn't get free toe holds in the Americas and Asia and have to fight for EITC).

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    von_Rundstedt
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 6:29:09 AM
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    I do not own CKII. You require a registered copy of the game to view the subforum, or so it seems.

    And no, I wont be joining a game with you, thank you.

    Ethiopia used to rule the Waves

    oddman
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 11:04:53 AM
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    King of Men wrote:
    Ok. I tried for a compromise; it seems this is impossible. We'll have two games, then. I must say that looking through the diplomatic archives, even cursorily, has somewhat increased my sympathy for oddman's position. Personality clashes are one thing, and bad enough; repeated violation of an honour code is something else again. Especially after getting caught twice.


    Thank you. It is indeed the violation of the rules and the seeming inability to play fair that is my fundamental problem, not his personality per se.
    Count me in, then.

    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
    -Bertrand Russell
    danomite
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 8:03:55 PM
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    If they are held on different days, I'll try both, atleast for the CK period, given my track record @ CK 2 I might as well hedge my bets.

    It is said that the future is always born in pain. The history of war is the history of pain.
    If we are wise, what is born of that pain matures into the promise of a better world,
    because we learn that we can no longer afford the mistakes of the past.
    BlitzMartinDK
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 10:36:10 PM
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    ..You had an (unenforceable) rule about not loading up games as other players. So "experimenting" in SP -like making landings on beaches- to scout out defenses is legal? (I guess that was how you knew Japans defenses to consist of GAR II only..). Why not just give up on a rule, where the only chance to prove an opponent (or "ally"..) has broken it, is when he post's that he DID break it? You sidestep it anyway, with this "play in SP and make an attack/airraid" to get exact info on position, dug-in level, and tech-level of forces!

    ..btw : was it even legal to allow an ally to load up as you?

    Only saying this for the next game, not to cast blame or such!
    King of Men
    Posted: Monday, January 14, 2013 11:48:42 PM
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    Hmm. I've got to say that I interpreted the rule as prohibiting SP experiments, precisely because it would allow you to find out that sort of information. Still, the plain text of the rule is "don't load up as other nations"; and SP loading as yourself won't let you find out MP reserves, production queues, and that sort of thing.

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
    Anders
    Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 9:18:05 AM
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    And the AI is dumb as fuck, in that it will suddenly stratdeploy half its armies to the other side of the map, making day 2 of any SP experiment near worthless in gauging the enemy's strength.

    "Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

    King of Men wrote:
    Anders is correct.

    Fivoin wrote:
    Yeah, Anders is right.

    baronbowden wrote:
    I would tend to agree with Anders.

    Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

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    BlitzMartinDK
    Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 3:22:53 PM
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    Anders wrote:
    And the AI is dumb as fuck, in that it will suddenly stratdeploy half its armies to the other side of the map, making day 2 of any SP experiment near worthless in gauging the enemy's strength.


    ..limiting the value, yes. But in situations where he cannot stratdeploy, like over a strait you a blockadeing..or off those islands.

    And KoM : My argument is rather, that you should not HAVE rules you cannot prove are broken. A rule like this, where you can never prove someone guilty, also means you can never prove anyone innocent, thus giving ripe grounds for accusations and (worse!) suspicions of foul play by ppl. who should be your friends (since we play games together..).

    For Example : When I play Magic the Cardgame with my friends and everybody else too : I ALWAYS offer my opponents to split the deck (is this the right term, in english? putting the top of the deck under the bottom...), and ALWAYS split their deck, just so no suspicions of unfair mixing of cards can occur..Because SUSPICIONS of cheating can kill a game even more than cheating!
    BlitzMartinDK
    Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 3:27:16 PM
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    Anders wrote:
    And the AI is dumb as fuck, in that it will suddenly stratdeploy half its armies to the other side of the map, making day 2 of any SP experiment near worthless in gauging the enemy's strength.


    ..just the chance to find out, that the enemy still has inf-36 when he is already researching inf-43! Or that Japan has not upgraded his marines and inf in korea! THAT was a surprise to ME, and I think KoM too!
    oddman
    Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 3:40:37 PM
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    BlitzMartinDK wrote:
    And KoM : My argument is rather, that you should NOT have rules you cannot prove are broken. A rule like this, where you can never prove someone guilty, also means you can never prove anyone innocent, thus giving ripe grounds for accusations and (worse!) suspicions of foul play by ppl. who should be your friends (since we play games together..).


    This is an interesting and important discussion, and lies at the heart of my issues with Blayne (and, to a lesser extent, Elcyion).

    First: why would you want to cheat? It's a game. A test of mettle, a test of wits, on the basis of equality. It is neither love nor war; it is something you do for fun, with friends, in good faith. Cheating is using out-of-game duplicity to skew the odds in your favour. I, for one, feel that doing so destroys the value my achievement, as it ceases to be a representative test.

    When playing a boardgame, I trust my friends not to cheat.

    When the cost of enforcing fair play is very small, like cutting a deck of cards, that is fine by me. However, in this game, enforcing fair play comes at a considerable cost.
    Last game, we spent a lot of time bickering about the converter, bickering about house rules - because there was mutual distrust. People were expected to advocate for their own nation, not for the game as a whole. That cost a lot of energy. Energy that we could have spent playing the game, if we could count on everyone being fair, honest and equitable when it comes to the meta-game (that is, house rules, conversion and out-of-character personal interaction).

    Even worse is that you can't even fully enforce fair play. It is in the nature of this game that exceptions, exploits and the like pop up, and before they are known, you can't enforce anything about it, so you're going to be dependent on the good faith of the players to bring it up in order to house-rule it anyway.

    Examples:
    Ricky: building factories from the ledger while Laissez-Faire (really fricking powerful: all the benefits of LF, none of the costs).
    CK-DV: Zombie armies, raising your vassals' regiments twice, doubling your effective army. This coined Foels his necromantic nickname.
    AoD: strat bombing capitals, lowering ESE across the board.


    So in the end, depending on fair play is the only way to go.

    (And that is why I refuse to play with Blayne, since he has repeatedly shown that he won't/can't play fairly and equitably. Same goes for Elcyion, who was unable to be civil in OOC communication.)







    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
    -Bertrand Russell
    Anders
    Posted: Tuesday, January 15, 2013 4:16:55 PM
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    oddman wrote:


    When playing a boardgame, I trust my friends not to cheat.

    Two major issues with comparing it to a boardgame with your friends:
    1) You cannot physically beat on people for cheating.
    2) None of these people are your "friends", except possibly in the way people you don't know all that well on fb are your "friends".

    "Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

    King of Men wrote:
    Anders is correct.

    Fivoin wrote:
    Yeah, Anders is right.

    baronbowden wrote:
    I would tend to agree with Anders.

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