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Anders
Posted: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:32:40 PM
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There are only 20 more years of gametime left. I did a little experiment with the vanilla Victoria-HoI2-converter, and the result wasn't entirely unsatysfying. The major problem is the missing cores, but I assume we will fix that by editing.
Germany seems to be the country with the best IC, just over 400 base. Unfortunately for him, he doesn't seem to have the resources to make his factories run at more than 50% Big Grin
Austria looks like a big smear of... well, of what it is, really.
Converted file below.

File Attachment(s):
Converted_1916_February_7.rar (93kb) downloaded 32 time(s).




"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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Mr.G
Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:14:01 AM
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Took a look at it and there will be the need for editing to say the least, I have a pocket of Italians in France! :-d

As much fun as DD will be with the war to end all wars, I think we need to drastically cut down on the units available. Tanks, airplanes and naval ships should be almost completely removed. I have a feeling if nothing is done then there will just be a massive build up of these cheap Vicky units that translate into expensive DD units.

Anders
Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:07:01 AM
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Also, mobilization forces aren't converted. Not even as MP. Guard brigades convert to Armoured Cars.
Perhaps the easiest way would be to just copypaste controlled/owned province IDs into core provs, and add provinces we should have claims on.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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Ederon
Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 8:15:07 AM
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I believe MontyP's converter does better job converting units. We may want to do conversions using both converters, then merge those two.
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:10:49 PM
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Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin 400 base IC, lol. I think i never had that ever before.... heheheeh.
Oh, unit conversion really must be done differently. Currently Italy for example has 220 capital ships LOL. And we have all at least 200+ tanks or so. In case of conversion, we need to split those number by 10 i think. Also i like the IC conversion. It really shows atm. how weak or strong nations are. US has barely 100 base IC, and Canada is very close. Also, Japan already has 55 base IC, and when continued to be played by a human, i think it'll all even out. China has jumped to 15 since last conversion (1880esque). I hope they will continue to do so. We also need to even out the borders a little. But that all is moddable. I hope the other converter does a better job at converting resources, i am seriously lacking them now... yay Now what we also need to do is to straighten out colors. Russia's color is butt ugly, so is Austrias.

But other than that, with a few tweaks in balance here and there, it looks pretty good to me.

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Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:53:11 PM
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Update: I have conerted the game using Montys converter. The unit count scales much nicer now, Italy only has 40BBs now Tongue, which still is an aweful lot. But hey, he has to pay the upkeep. Still lower the number maybe. And UK still has 160+ TPs Tongue Also, the IC conversion showed some interesting stuff. I kept my 400+ IC, but UK scaled down to 300, followed by Fra with 250, Sov 180, Ita 150, US 110, Spa (!!!) 95, CAN 90, JAP 70something. Those are rough numbers, but are about right. Also, the MP conversion is nice, at least for Germany. I mean, i got 2+ a day, which is quite awesome. no more MP problems for me Smile
Adding cores also might not be necessary, since the "occupied" territories show only 1% partisanship. But for the sake of gathering IC, we should do it.

The converter strangely didnt convert resources in the right way. Do you know why? It's the exact same ones as in vanilla. Also, i fear that we wont all have enough energy and stuff like that. Do the RGOs need to be filled to count when converted, or does only the RGO level count? And what exactly counts as energy, only coal? Most nations only have 1-2 provinces with coal, are there other raw materials which will result in energy?

File Attachment(s):
TEST1.rar (45kb) downloaded 31 time(s).




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Ederon
Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:15:34 PM
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Gen.Schuermann wrote:
Update: I have conerted the game using Montys converter. The unit count scales much nicer now, Italy only has 40BBs now Tongue, which still is an aweful lot. But hey, he has to pay the upkeep. Still lower the number maybe. And UK still has 160+ TPs Tongue Also, the IC conversion showed some interesting stuff. I kept my 400+ IC, but UK scaled down to 300, followed by Fra with 250, Sov 180, Ita 150, US 110, Spa (!!!) 95, CAN 90, JAP 70something.

In Monty's converter many conversion ratios can be tweaked. Looking at data.txt, you can tweak conversion of:
  • IC
  • technology
  • manpower
  • leaders
  • units (land, air, naval, naval for each type)

    I attach these text files for better access.

    File Attachment(s):
    Data.txt (10kb) downloaded 35 time(s).
    Bases.txt (13kb) downloaded 0 time(s).
    Countries.txt (8kb) downloaded 30 time(s).
    DeadTeams.txt (3kb) downloaded 27 time(s).
    Provinces.txt (101kb) downloaded 29 time(s).


  • Gen.Schuermann
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:26:00 PM
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    I think i will lower the "soft" industry thing from 0.750 to 0.250, as it is virtually unimportant to war efforts, i think (it would also bring down my ridiculous IC, i think). Well, up this figure for Sov, as liquor factories attributed greatly to war efforts Tongue
    Anyway, the converter, although saidin the readme, does seemingly not convert resources. Does that work for you?

    In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
    Stalins Elite
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:07:18 PM
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    I just loaded Austria in both Anders and Schurmans conversion attempts. In Anders attempt I have slightyly lower base ic, but my resources are about the same, maybe a bit higher. My tech levels are extremely low, but I have alot of tech teams. IE: Czechoslavakia's, Hungarys, Greece's tech teams. My army was massive as represented in our current game, but my starting MP reserve is quite low.

    In Schurmans attempt. I had higher base ic, slightyly lower resources ect ect. The only thing noticabally different was the fact that I literrally only had about '8' shit tech teams and my army was alot smaller and manpower reserve was quite higher.

    In conclusion. This is my opinion of the matter. I say we go with Anders conversion. But as a group I think we all need to aggree on peace 2 years before we end the VicRev game (1934). We also need to aggree on a limit of units that we will all retain, I know myself as Austria it would be quite difficult for me to maintain an army of 150 divs on 70 base ic. So maybe if we all aggree to only keep say 30 divs max each. For those of us with tanks then say max 30 infantry and 5 tanks, the rest we disband which should also increase the low MP levels in the conversion. Those with naval units, ie 220 Italian capital ships, I'm sure Mussolini wishes. Maybe we need to aggree on a max for this also. Ie the historically large naval powers, UK, USA, Japan, Italy. Perhaps limit them to 100-120 naval units with only 25 percent of those allowed to be capital ships. Everyone else is limited to say 50-60 ships, again only 25 percent of those being capital ships. In regards to resources and manpower. As Austria I was making a comfortable surplus of everything, but then I never had a staggering 404 base IC (keep in mind we still have 20 years to go so that could well be 808 base ic when we do the final conversion, Schur you've created a Nazi monsterSergeant ). Say for every 100 base ic a nation has, you edit 100 power, 25 steel, 10 rares and say 5 oil into they're capital city. So basically if your capital falls or get's nuked then kiss your 404 ic good bye. But as an example. In Schur's case. You would edit 400 power, 100 steel, 40 rares and 20 oil into Berlin. In order to help the MP problem, simple. Just edit every nation 400-500 MP. Thoughts and suggestions gentlemen/ladies... SE.

    Admiral Kutzenov - The Cold War lives.



    Ederon
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:30:33 PM
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    I don't like limits SE proposes. Let everyone have number of untis he is able/willing to have. Then, we can easily merge outputs of built-in and Monty's converters. Rather than imposing artificial limits. Let's each converted do what she is best in.
    Valdemar
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:33:15 PM
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    Herr General Schuermann;

    I am currently in the midst of doing a map mod for HOI2 DD. I have put in an exhaustive amount of research into the effort. For example, I use mineral maps and mining site data from the 1930s, 40s, 50s, 60s. I have done as much research as possible into the industrial uses of minerals in the relevant era (30s, 40s). And I have researched the process of electrification and power generation. Here are some of the things I've found that may help you:

    With the exception of hydroelectric power (something I'm attempting to research) all electric power in the WWI to WWII era was generated by coal-burning power plants.

    Before the establishment of power grids, which took place in the 1910s, 20s, and 30s, many heavy industrial plants had their own coal-fired electrical generation.

    Not all coal is the same and generates more or less energy accordingly. This is no small point as Anthracite, for example, has about twice the heat enegy of Lignite.

    The grades of coal are:

    Anthracite - hard black coal with low amounts of sulfur and volatiles.
    Bituminous - black coal.
    Sub-Bituminous - brownish black soft coal, with a fair amount of contaminates.
    Lignite - Soft brown coal which usually contains volatiles, sulfur and non-burning plant minerals (thus the name, Lignite)
    Peat - you can burn this stuff. It's actually a better fuel source than wood, but not much better.

    So, when thinking about what "energy" represents in game terms, yes it's just coal. I will be adding "energy" to map regions based on where power-producing dams where located when I can get that information, but coal is it. Of the major European powers, Britain has the best coal in both amounts and quality, followed by Belgium, Russia, and Germany. France had the only known site for Anthracite in Europe at the time of WWII. Most of Germany's coal was/is sub-Bituminous coal and Lignite. Russia had/has huge deposits of coal in various parts of Siberia which were known about early on, but not exploited until the Communist Revolution.

    Now that you know more about coal than you ever wanted to know, I hope this was helpful.

    Regards,
    Valdemar



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    Valdemar
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 4:05:51 PM
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    I do have a question.

    Why not use the converter from Victoria: Revolutions?

    I don't have Vicky, so excuse my ignorance if the answer seems patently obvious.

    Regards,
    Valdemar

    "Tell my mother that, when you found me, I was with the only brothers I had left. She'll understand that." - Private Ryan Saving Private Ryan
    Ederon
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 4:14:20 PM
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    Valdemar wrote:
    Why not use the converter from Victoria: Revolutions?

    I don't understand your question. We use converter build-in V:R and MontyP's custom one.
    Valdemar
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 4:17:43 PM
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    Ooops, sorry. I thought "vanilla converter" refered to some player-made tool that was the basis for others.

    How disappointing that Paradox's own converter works so poorly.

    Regards,
    Valdemar

    "Tell my mother that, when you found me, I was with the only brothers I had left. She'll understand that." - Private Ryan Saving Private Ryan
    Gen.Schuermann
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 4:45:17 PM
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    Hehe, thanks Valdemar Big Grin That is indeed more i ever wanted to know yay But interesting, nonetheless.

    Nobody answered the real question yet: Did the converter convert the resources (MontyP's) or not?? Because then i wont do more with my industry now, since i wont be able to fire it anyway.

    In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
    Stalins Elite
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:02:22 PM
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    Well it's simple. Expand and fill as many RGO's of coal and oil as you can in the next 20 years Schur. SE.

    Admiral Kutzenov - The Cold War lives.



    Gen.Schuermann
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:04:31 PM
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    Well, of course i could do that. But for that i need to know if any of those 2 converters actually DO convert my resource output.

    Also, i would like to add that i want steel plants to be like the resource Iron.

    In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
    Aster
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:04:42 PM
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    About Industry and Resources:

    The important question, it seems to me, is whether the Vikky-HOI2 converter uses direct conversion of industry - a given amount of industry in Vikky always means the same in HOI2 (ignoring certain complexities such as the treatment of very small nations), or scaled conversion - the higher global industry ratings are, the more Vikky industry it takes to generate an HOI2 IC point.

    If direct conversion is used, then I propose we edit to scale down industry to a point that global resources can handle, instead of adding more resources to accommodate the excess industry. The reason for this is that the game will both bog down and become unstable if we allow too much production capacity and thus units.


    About units:
    Unit numbers have to be seriously scaled down for the same reason - we're going to get lag, slowdowns, and crashes if we don't reduce units to what the game engine can handle. We will also see rather tedious gameplay.

    If we scale down industry correctly, the problem with excessive numbers of high-consumption units (planes and tanks) will largely be solved; sure, you can build the things, but can you support and upgrade them? Capital ships may also be disciplined this way.
    Aster
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:05:31 PM
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    Stalins Elite wrote:
    Well it's simple. Expand and fill as many RGO's of coal and oil as you can in the next 20 years Schur. SE.
    This will have no effect, unfortunately.
    Stalins Elite
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:16:24 PM
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    Aster wrote:
    About Industry and Resources:

    The important question, it seems to me, is whether the Vikky-HOI2 converter uses direct conversion of industry - a given amount of industry in Vikky always means the same in HOI2 (ignoring certain complexities such as the treatment of very small nations), or scaled conversion - the higher global industry ratings are, the more Vikky industry it takes to generate an HOI2 IC point.

    If direct conversion is used, then I propose we edit to scale down industry to a point that global resources can handle, instead of adding more resources to accommodate the excess industry. The reason for this is that the game will both bog down and become unstable if we allow too much production capacity and thus units.


    About units:
    Unit numbers have to be seriously scaled down for the same reason - we're going to get lag, slowdowns, and crashes if we don't reduce units to what the game engine can handle. We will also see rather tedious gameplay.

    If we scale down industry correctly, the problem with excessive numbers of high-consumption units (planes and tanks) will largely be solved; sure, you can build the things, but can you support and upgrade them? Capital ships may also be disciplined this way.


    You obviously have never played me in HOI DD Aster. Ask Anders what sought of airforce I generally bring to the fight. Something in excess of 150 aircraft IIRCEvil Grin SE.

    Admiral Kutzenov - The Cold War lives.



    Gen.Schuermann
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 5:48:12 PM
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    Aster wrote:
    About Industry and Resources:

    The important question, it seems to me, is whether the Vikky-HOI2 converter uses direct conversion of industry - a given amount of industry in Vikky always means the same in HOI2 (ignoring certain complexities such as the treatment of very small nations), or scaled conversion - the higher global industry ratings are, the more Vikky industry it takes to generate an HOI2 IC point.

    If direct conversion is used, then I propose we edit to scale down industry to a point that global resources can handle, instead of adding more resources to accommodate the excess industry. The reason for this is that the game will both bog down and become unstable if we allow too much production capacity and thus units.


    About units:
    Unit numbers have to be seriously scaled down for the same reason - we're going to get lag, slowdowns, and crashes if we don't reduce units to what the game engine can handle. We will also see rather tedious gameplay.

    If we scale down industry correctly, the problem with excessive numbers of high-consumption units (planes and tanks) will largely be solved; sure, you can build the things, but can you support and upgrade them? Capital ships may also be disciplined this way.


    If you look at the save i presented, this basically is in effect already. When you convert, you can basically alter all variables to match our needs. For example: Industries like liquor or luxury clothes do most likely have nothing to do with industrial might of the nation, in terms of war industry. However, artillery, steel, small arms factories will contribute much more to the war effort then the before mentioned industries, and therefore willö contribute more to the IC. I will try to tweak the settings a little, in order for it to result in less "uber" industries. There is no need for 400 base IC, i absolutely agree.

    Therefore i would like to play with MontyP's converter, as it also converts the units properly. In the normal conversion, i have 80+ tanks. in the other one, i only have roughly 29. We can always lower that to make less tanks.

    Question to Ederon: What version of the VicToHoi2 converter do you use? The added values are not in the data.txt i have. I only have 0.09, do you have a higher one? This is the one i got from your site.

    In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
    Gen.Schuermann
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:30:49 PM
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    Ok, i found 1.03. But the converte, if i change the IC ratio of heavy, medium and light industry, nothing happens during conversion. Does anyone know why?

    In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
    Stalins Elite
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:57:25 PM
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    Gen.Schuermann wrote:
    If you look at the save i presented, this basically is in effect already. When you convert, you can basically alter all variables to match our needs. For example: Industries like liquor or luxury clothes do most likely have nothing to do with industrial might of the nation, in terms of war industry. However, artillery, steel, small arms factories will contribute much more to the war effort then the before mentioned industries, and therefore willö contribute more to the IC. I will try to tweak the settings a little, in order for it to result in less "uber" industries. There is no need for 400 base IC, i absolutely agree.

    Therefore i would like to play with MontyP's converter, as it also converts the units properly. In the normal conversion, i have 80+ tanks. in the other one, i only have roughly 29. We can always lower that to make less tanks.

    Question to Ederon: What version of the VicToHoi2 converter do you use? The added values are not in the data.txt i have. I only have 0.09, do you have a higher one? This is the one i got from your site.


    Your converter Schur gave me the gayed tech teams. Is it possible to maybe copy and paste the Romanian, Hungarian, Czech, Greek, Yugo, Albania, Bulgarian tech teams over, or atleast some of them. The tech teams I got with Anders conversion were some decent teams as they should be for a reasonable sized empire such as mine. Maybe it is possible to take both conversions and copy and paste the tech teams from Anders conversion to yours or vice versa??? SE.

    Admiral Kutzenov - The Cold War lives.



    Aster
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:01:31 PM
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    Stalins Elite wrote:
    You obviously have never played me in HOI DD Aster. Ask Anders what sought of airforce I generally bring to the fight. Something in excess of 150 aircraft IIRCEvil Grin SE.
    There is a misunderstanding here. Under my proposal, a nation with your current industry or anything like it would not be able to support even close to 150 aircraft, if you had any interest in an army also. Plus, if you overloaded yourself that way you'd find that even those planes you /could/ support you would not be able to upgrade. You'd be flying biplanes well into the war, a recipe for nasty defeats against a less burdened opponent...
    Ederon
    Posted: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 7:02:11 PM
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    Stalins Elite wrote:
    Your converter Schur gave me the gayed tech teams. Is it possible to maybe copy and paste the Romanian, Hungarian, Czech, Greek, Yugo, Albania, Bulgarian tech teams over, or atleast some of them. The tech teams I got with Anders conversion were some decent teams as they should be for a reasonable sized empire such as mine. Maybe it is possible to take both conversions and copy and paste the tech teams from Anders conversion to yours or vice versa??? SE.

    As I said SE, we can merge best of each outputs to one file. It's not a problem, really.
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