Welcome Guest Search | Active Topics | Members | Log In

Discussion thread for the next game Options · View
Fivoin
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:10:02 PM
 General

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 4/21/2010
Posts: 2,199
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
As the title says, discussion thread for the next Great Game!
Post suggestions and such in this thread.

My suggestion is to go with the current version of the mod and ruleset as a base. It worked out well I think with the "no vanilla empires" stuff and using the previous stuff can get us going rather quickly.

Stuff to be decided:
Starting date, both in-game and out of game.
Starting size.
Number of players.
Name of the new series.
oddman
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:19:47 PM
 Admiral

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 3/16/2007
Posts: 2,830
Location: Netherlands
I'm going to look up everything Vaniver suggested. Off the top of my head: scientifically determined starting locations.

Also:
* Better peace rules. Occupy the target area, at least. Maybe limit it to duchy-level CBs only and make all duchies the same size in baronies.
* Human vassal rules: no sure De Jure is a good thing to go by.

Starting date: no suggestions for in-game, but real time: we need to set down converter principles, dammit.
Also, practicality suggests that we don't start too early, as that limits save game bloat/instability/dang vikings/religious imbalance.


"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell
synario
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:30:18 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel


Joined: 2/8/2014
Posts: 677
Location: 'MERICA!
I strongly agree on firmly established conversion principles. WE obviously can't determine all the converter mods ahead of time, but we need some basic principles, a Constitution of sorts. Pure power=power or not, for example?

Semi-random starting locations: Semi-random in that we take into careful consideration where the veteran players are placed. Do we restrict them to playing the poorest nations? Do we evenly spread them among the noobs, or we do concentrate all the veterans into one location?

Random locations will add some spice to the game and prevent pre-game metagaming a little bit, not that meta-gaming is completely bad all the time.

I am in favor of the latest starting time possible. Later than 1066. People play the default starting time and earlier start-times, but they never seem to play the later start times and it'd be a fresh change of pace.

LASTLY: Can we do something so the AI aren't such push-overs? Maybe raise the difficulty-level of them to the highest possible level or even edit them extra money/troops?
Anders
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:34:19 PM
 Generalfeldmarschall

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support MedalBanned in ActionAuthor of 7000th post

Joined: 3/9/2007
Posts: 13,057
Location: Auf das der Adler wieder fliegt
Starting as early as possible is my preference. If 1066, AFTER Hastings.
Needs better rules against human vassals. It's way too exploity the way it turned out this time.
Re. the converter, how about you run it through the vanilla-converter and have a look at what seems to work and what needs fixing?
Starting positions determined by empiricism is probably best.

And I want to play in Spain this time, please. Christian if 1000s, Mohammedan if earlier.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
synario
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:35:44 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel


Joined: 2/8/2014
Posts: 677
Location: 'MERICA!
Maybe we could all agree ahead of time to use the vanilla converter, no modifications at all? That way people can't bitch when they get screwed over and claim admin bias or something like that?

We could even determine the starting locations so that the veteran players are the one's hit the hardest by the notoriously unfair nature of the vanilla converter.

In a weird sort of way, the inherent unfairness of the vanilla converter would be the most fair option possible, since everybody can anticipate it ahead of time and plan appropriately?
dragoon9105
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:42:59 PM
 Lieutenant General


Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,153
Some of my own Recommendations.

No Player controlled Empires Period besides the Mongols and Aztecs. Vassal Limits will add more incentive to not murder everyone around you since you cant manage the land as easily.

Agree'd with Oddman, If things are going to stay hyper competitive, No Crusad/Jihads/Invasions. Duchy size max.

Along with relgious Balance, you have to stay a demonination of your starting faith. Christians must stay christian, Pagans have to announce beforehand if they plant to convert or reform, Muslims can take any Muslim sect. Indians can take any Indian sect.
Then you can balance it by regions and player number. 4 Muslim players in the Middle east for example is too many, There needs to be conflict there at the start no matter what start it may be.

If we use the Charlie start theres going to need to be a Player Charlie at least temporary, If the Abbasid and Byzantium are going to exist the Catholics need a powerful empire at the start to hide behind.

No changing culture to abuse longbows, Cataphracts and Horse archers, I mean seriously.
Anders
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:43:23 PM
 Generalfeldmarschall

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support MedalBanned in ActionAuthor of 7000th post

Joined: 3/9/2007
Posts: 13,057
Location: Auf das der Adler wieder fliegt
synario wrote:
Maybe we could all agree ahead of time to use the vanilla converter, no modifications at all? That way people can't bitch when they get screwed over and claim admin bias or something like that?

That could actually work.
However, how good IS the vanilla converter?

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
dragoon9105
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:44:15 PM
 Lieutenant General


Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,153
Terrible, Essentially conquer Germany and Italy in Ck2 and use the Vanilla converter, You have five times the Basetax as everyone else.
Anders
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:44:26 PM
 Generalfeldmarschall

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support MedalBanned in ActionAuthor of 7000th post

Joined: 3/9/2007
Posts: 13,057
Location: Auf das der Adler wieder fliegt
dragoon9105 wrote:
No changing culture to abuse longbows, Cataphracts and Horse archers, I mean seriously.

They're already modded out, since we're not using cultural retinues.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
dragoon9105
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:44:50 PM
 Lieutenant General


Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,153
Cultural buildings are not however.
Anders
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:46:31 PM
 Generalfeldmarschall

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support MedalBanned in ActionAuthor of 7000th post

Joined: 3/9/2007
Posts: 13,057
Location: Auf das der Adler wieder fliegt
dragoon9105 wrote:
Terrible, Essentially conquer Germany and Italy in Ck2 and use the Vanilla converter, You have five times the Basetax as everyone else.

Then I'd suggest people don't let anyone keep Germany and Italy, instead of imagining themselves to be clever and making stupid, short-sighted deals that allow some players to accumulate vast power. Banning human vassals is one way of preventing that sort of thing.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
Anders
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:50:24 PM
 Generalfeldmarschall

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support MedalBanned in ActionAuthor of 7000th post

Joined: 3/9/2007
Posts: 13,057
Location: Auf das der Adler wieder fliegt
dragoon9105 wrote:
Cultural buildings are not however.

Well, we could have rules on how/when you're allowed to swap culture and religion. Like for instance prohibiting change to any culture or religion either not in your capital province, your AI liege, or the majority of your vassals.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
oddman
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:59:26 PM
 Admiral

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 3/16/2007
Posts: 2,830
Location: Netherlands
Cultures need to be equaled out (so it doesn't matter which one you are, except for which provinces have it - and we could consider equaling that out as well, and letting players play custom cultures, which have no provinces on the map).

If religion is going to be an essential part of gameplay, something along the lines of Dragoon's suggestions would be a good idea (no switching between major religions, balancing player numbers per group). Probably also equal out religious capabilities: muslim's free ducal revocation and easy duke-level intra-religous CB? Pretty powerful.

Using the vanilla editor seems like a terrible idea, as per Dragoon's suggestion.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
-Bertrand Russell
synario
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:03:28 PM
 Lieutenant Colonel


Joined: 2/8/2014
Posts: 677
Location: 'MERICA!
Playing like risk also seems terribly boring.
Fivoin
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:10:14 PM
 General

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 4/21/2010
Posts: 2,199
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
I like the fact that the religions are a bit different but some of the differences are rather huge. Player Jihads are way too powerful for example so one way of equalizing things would be to remove player caliphs/fylkirs.

On the converter: the idea was to use the Paradox converter and adjust the converted nations by hand by for example splitting off parts of realms into controlled vassals. The RotW scenario would then be set up with the European situation in mind. It's not really productive to get too much into these details at this stage though but the underlying principle would be power=>power with reservation on the technical details since we're not writing this converter ourselves.
King of Men
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:11:22 PM
 Legatus legionis

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 11/23/2007
Posts: 8,492
Location: Nowhere
Seeing the issues we had with save bloat, a later start than 769 is probably a good idea.

Perhaps we can just forbid human vassals entirely? It's not clear to me that they added anything except easy blobbing.

GHWs and such: What if we allow them, but only if the AI declares them? So no vassal Popes, no player Fylkirs. Not sure if this works for Muslims, though.

If we used a non-official converter, it would be nice if it had some incentives for spinning off independent kingdoms of your dynasty. For example, it could do something like "for every independent King-year of your dynasty, you get an event giving some ADM points in EU4". Just a thought.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
dragoon9105
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:17:48 PM
 Lieutenant General


Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,153
It would mean having to force give the Caliphate to the AI.

Also Independent Dynastic kingdoms sounds more like a diplomatic bonus than administrative.
Fivoin
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:20:00 PM
 General

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 4/21/2010
Posts: 2,199
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
I definitely agree with a later start date and this is a good starting point for us going forwards. I would suggest either William (December 1066) or the Alexiad (1081). I strongly suggest that we don't start before 1066 this time.

Human vassals can save a spot from being obliterated. Anders Venice and Dragoons Italy survived a great deal longer because they could go vassal. Føls spot owes its entire existence to being a vassal. I agree that having no limits at start was not the best idea though. We could use the current system but set a base starting limit.

Agree on the no player fylkirs/caliphs/vassalized popes.

Quote:
If we used a non-official converter, it would be nice if it had some incentives for spinning off independent kingdoms of your dynasty. For example, it could do something like "for every independent King-year of your dynasty, you get an event giving some ADM points in EU4". Just a thought.

While this is a cool idea it requires some thought if it's implemented. The best thing would be to have a player for the spun off spot but as we know there's a limit on how many players we can have.
Clonefusion
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 11:31:48 PM
 Major

Joined: 7/14/2013
Posts: 532
Location: Germany
I think the vanilla converter should be used as base and then player base tax, base production and base manpower should be calculated based on holdings.
For starting date I would prefer 1066 and yes I would like to join from start, I understand ck2 basics, but not much more, so I won't say anything about rules, but what do u guys think about the idea of potentially using a ck2 mod which extends map (I mean more kingdoms, more duchies, more counties), that might lead to more players surviving, although I might be a wrong in this and another proposal I have is to just completely skip ck2, because ck2 is in no way balanced for multiplayer (yes eu4 is also far from perfect, but mp in it works better) and then we could directly start in eu4 and use custom nations to fill the world.
el_zilcho321
Posted: Sunday, April 26, 2015 11:53:39 PM
 General

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 5/28/2011
Posts: 2,152
Location: UK
Clonefusion wrote:
I think the vanilla converter should be used as base and then player base tax, base production and base manpower should be calculated based on holdings.


Something like this ^

Ban player vassals

Ban kingdom tier CBs

Nerf fimcomte Big Grin

padre
synario
Posted: Monday, April 27, 2015 12:32:18 AM
 Lieutenant Colonel


Joined: 2/8/2014
Posts: 677
Location: 'MERICA!
Skip ck2!
Fimconte
Posted: Monday, April 27, 2015 12:39:21 AM
 Centurion


Joined: 11/17/2014
Posts: 895
Kingdom tier CBs are far too powerful.
And AI controlled just means players will try to max contribution to 'win' them.

#peacethroughpower
dragoon9105
Posted: Monday, April 27, 2015 12:55:19 AM
 Lieutenant General


Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,153
Clonefusion wrote:
although I might be a wrong in this and another proposal I have is to just completely skip ck2, because ck2 is in no way balanced for multiplayer (yes eu4 is also far from perfect, but mp in it works better) and then we could directly start in eu4 and use custom nations to fill the world.


You are 100% correct. If were going to keep the risk mentality why cant we just use a Timeline mod for Eu4 or just a custom world with the start date pushed back. CK is like playing risk with half the of the DND rulebook, Its hardly balanced at all for competitive play. I love Ck2 but i dont like playing "Who can rule lawyer and break the game the best"
King of Men
Posted: Monday, April 27, 2015 12:55:21 AM
 Legatus legionis

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 11/23/2007
Posts: 8,492
Location: Nowhere
Quote:
I think the vanilla converter should be used as base and then player base tax, base production and base manpower should be calculated based on holdings.


Unless you intend to do the calculation by hand, this is basically equivalent to just writing a new converter.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
Darth Tempest
Posted: Monday, April 27, 2015 1:21:10 AM
 Sergeant

Joined: 11/9/2014
Posts: 62
Perhaps if we nerf the concept of blobbing transitions from ck ii to EU IV phase? For instance say on conversion whatever is within your blob converts to your primary religion/culture but the blobs themselves are broken up into approximate kingdom tiers; or whatever geographic breakup is deemed balanced. With the player in question getting their first pick of which particular kingdom they want within their blob. Thus one could either leave the other components of the blob as AI or add players to Europe if the distribution is low (to prevent making huge nations on other continents to counteract EU blobs).
Users browsing this topic
Guest


Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum.
You cannot reply to topics in this forum.
You cannot delete your posts in this forum.
You cannot edit your posts in this forum.
You cannot create polls in this forum.
You cannot vote in polls in this forum.

Powered by Yet Another Forum.net version 1.9.0 (NET v2.0) - 10/10/2006
Copyright © 2003-2006 Yet Another Forum.net. All rights reserved.
Copyright © 2005-2007 Daniel "Lord Ederon" Scibrany. All rights reserved.