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King of Men
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2016 8:43:22 AM
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Somewhat belated, but new game, new thread!

I have looked at the factory situation - sorry I didn't get to it yesterday. I am beginning to think that I should have paid a bit more attention to this in October. Here are the numbers; no scaling on the left, our mod on the right.

Code:

                      No scaling                     Scaling = 0.5
               MIL      CIV       DOCK         MIL      CIV       DOCK
France          0        2          0          17        48         0               
Columbia        0        3          0           9        30        11         
Mexico          1        2          0           5        14         5       
West Indies     5       15          3          10        27         5             
Mongolia        1        3          0          13        41         0         
Australia       0        6          3          11        30         6           
V. Australia             4          2           5        15         4           

Fox            82      201         38          52       151        29                   
UCA            23       63         12          30        73        10         
India          40      101          8          43        88         7           

England        90      240         67          69       172        45               
Denmark        38       90         40          30        86        32             
Egypt          32       86         19          37        90        10           

Germany        89      223         11          64       152        16               
Japan          63      147         41          50       106        31             
Venice         35       98         16          34        91        17           


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The Professor
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2016 3:52:23 PM
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So what precisely are we discussing, is it just the minors having a minimum of 50 ic and whether that took away from the majors? If the code did something arbitrary like "Minor_IC = 50" instead of giving them a much higher weighting then it isn't likely to have nerfed the majors.

The 0.5f scaling that we did discuss about 1-2 weeks before conversion was just, just like with the army scaling IIRC, to bring the total number of factories in the world to a manageable level and should have effected everyone equally.

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Then so be it who else can see it done.
JacobGood
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2016 6:01:46 PM
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So even just reading the first line, England gained 65 factories by annexing France in hoi4, compared to the 2 he would have recieved in Vicky 2.
baronbowden
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2016 6:26:09 PM
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And lost over 100 to some ninja idea to buff minors and penalize majors...

Although looking at that hilariously only ai minors ended up buffed

The Professor wrote:

The 0.5f scaling that we did discuss about 1-2 weeks before conversion was just, just like with the army scaling IIRC, to bring the total number of factories in the world to a manageable level and should have effected everyone equally.


When was this ever discussed? I looked through and couldnt find it on forums

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JacobGood
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2016 6:54:43 PM
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baronbowden wrote:
And lost over 100 to some ninja idea to buff minors and penalize majors...

Although looking at that hilariously only ai minors ended up buffed



When was this ever discussed? I looked through and couldnt find it on forums



Sure you lost 100 some, but immediately got Frances back while no one could do anything about it. Let's roll back to 1935, and do this shit right.
Anders
Posted: Friday, December 09, 2016 10:45:19 PM
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King of Men wrote:


Code:

                      No scaling                     Scaling = 0.5
               MIL      CIV       DOCK         MIL      CIV       DOCK
France          0        2          0          17        48         0               
Columbia        0        3          0           9        30        11         
Mexico          1        2          0           5        14         5       
West Indies     5       15          3          10        27         5             
Mongolia        1        3          0          13        41         0         
Australia       0        6          3          11        30         6           
V. Australia             4          2           5        15         4           

Fox            82      201         38          52       151        29                   
UCA            23       63         12          30        73        10         
India          40      101          8          43        88         7           

England        90      240         67          69       172        45               
Denmark        38       90         40          30        86        32             
Egypt          32       86         19          37        90        10           

Germany        89      223         11          64       152        16               
Japan          63      147         41          50       106        31             
Venice         35       98         16          34        91        17           

Looks like the only countries that got significantly buffed were the non-player minors.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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The Professor
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 2:23:27 AM
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baronbowden wrote:
And lost over 100 to some ninja idea to buff minors and penalize majors...


Where did this happen, did it actually happen? Idhrendur's code is a little difficult to read at a glance; where did this interpretation come from?

baronbowden wrote:
Where was...


KoM proposed it in the Naval thread, you even responded to his post Here

I tried searching my posts but I'm sure I voiced agreement somewhere.

e: Regardless the number of civilian factories is generally very high among all of the top 4 to 6 nations with the remainder having decent numbers for mid ranked powers; like even me, Peru, has enough to to have already maxed out the number of military factories my country can effectively support.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 3:49:35 AM
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Quote:
Where did this happen, did it actually happen?


Look at the numbers I posted in the table. In the non-scaled version England has 90+240+67 = 397 factories. In the version we actually played, 69 + 172 + 45 = 286. Baron's comment is entirely accurate.

Anders wrote:
Looks like the only countries that got significantly buffed were the non-player minors.


Indeed, this irony has not escaped me. As I said, I should have been a bit more careful back in October. Sad

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The Professor
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 4:13:30 AM
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King of Men wrote:
Look at the numbers I posted in the table. In the non-scaled version England has 90+240+67 = 397 factories. In the version we actually played, 69 + 172 + 45 = 286. Baron's comment is entirely accurate.


I still don't understand the problem. The "loss" of factories from scaling, is intended no? How does this factor with respect to AI Minors? Aren't these entirely two separate issues?

Scaling being a deliberate effort to bring the total number of factories in the world; which should roughly have effected everyone equally; to a manageable and reasonable number with respect to the vanilla number?

Both Fox and Baron lost 28% of their total factories, I'm going to assume Germany is the same. I bizarrely gained 22 factories; so sure, something is happening with scaling I don't understand, but.

I'm not exactly sure what's going on here; I'd argue however that any conversion scheme should have had a logarithmic scaling anyways to prevent any one or two nations from having a pointless preponderance of IC just so that the game remains somewhat of a sporting fair event.

As an example, 240 factories is enough to build 16 factories in parallel at full speed. At 172 factories it's 11 at full with 1 at half speed. I would not take Baron very long to build back up to 240 factories.

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 5:42:33 AM
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Quote:
Scaling being a deliberate effort to bring the total number of factories in the world


Right. That's why I should have used the correct term "industry shape factor". Which moves factories from majors to minors. In this case, the AI minors instead of the player minors as I intended.

Quote:
As an example, 240 factories is enough to build 16 factories in parallel at full speed. At 172 factories it's 11 at full with 1 at half speed. I would not take Baron very long to build back up to 240 factories.


Well, the issue is that he gets a bunch of those factories back right away just from being next to France, while other majors who weren't so lucky in their placement don't get to recover so easily.

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JacobGood
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:15:07 AM
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Not just next to France- I was next to France, the issue there is he got to war them and take it all which hurts both Tazzo and I in relation to Baron. It also makes eating minors a necessity to keep pace.
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 6:33:26 AM
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JacobGood wrote:
Not just next to France- I was next to France, the issue there is he got to war them and take it all which hurts both Tazzo and I in relation to Baron. It also makes eating minors a necessity to keep pace.


Right - the point is, the factories are still there, but now they go to whoever is lucky enough to be able to conveniently war for them. It's not like I'm gung-ho for the three biggest powers to get All The Industry, but they basically get it anyway, the difference is that it's distributed by minor-closeness instead of Vicky factories. Which probably helps Fox (Mexico, Columbia, both Australias) and England (France, West Indies) relative to Germany (Mongolia).

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The Professor
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 7:25:20 AM
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I think I and most of the other "Minor" players would prefer no one gets them to the majors getting them.



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Then so be it who else can see it done.
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, December 10, 2016 7:48:48 AM
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The Professor wrote:
I think I and most of the other "Minor" players would prefer no one gets them to the majors getting them.


Yes, right, that's another possibility. Although in that case I should edit your industries down a bit, since you were actually boosted a bit by the shaping. Smile

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The Professor
Posted: Monday, December 12, 2016 9:16:48 PM
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King of Men wrote:
Yes, right, that's another possibility. Although in that case I should edit your industries down a bit, since you were actually boosted a bit by the shaping. Smile


Please don't. They actually made me viable. Big Grin


So the question I think comes down to, if shaping is supposed to have happened, where some of the IC got redistributed from the top four to the other players instead of to the AI Minor OPM's, then it's only some simple math to fix.

Take the total amount of redistributed IC that went to AI's; and just even distributed it between the bottom players.

I'd specify a preference to lose excess civilian factories to military factories.

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Then so be it who else can see it done.
baronbowden
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:22:50 AM
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I think you are missing what most are saying.


Shaping was the complete wrong and inappropriate thing to do in the first place - (but Bowden thinks it's kinda hilarious how badly it blew up and refuses to really slam conversion work because he is gm and also because he was too busy to catch the mistake ,Jacob thinks it's pretty much cheating, fiv condemns it strongly enough he even dared to say roll back)

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baronbowden
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:13:06 AM
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Just a polite reminder for the week.

Remember because of peace conference system we have moved to GM enforced peace rules, so don't create terms you don't plan on honouring fully in any sort of treaty as it will just make life hell.

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King of Men
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:49:04 AM
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I have looked a bit at the save, and it appears that when you conquer a nation you damage its industry? Baron does not have 65 factories in what used to be France, he has more like 30.

That said, I suggest going with the simplest edit: Just remove the factories in the minors and the formerly-minor states. This gives some people a certain amount of advantage since they'll have had the benefit of using those factories for a while, but that seems difficult to compensate for.

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King of Men
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 6:42:00 AM
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By the way, as we are doing peace by edits, are we also doing faction entries and exits by edit?

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Anders
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:56:23 AM
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King of Men wrote:
I have looked a bit at the save, and it appears that when you conquer a nation you damage its industry? Baron does not have 65 factories in what used to be France, he has more like 30.

It depends on your occupation-policy, IIRC.
You didn't get 100% of captured non-core IC in HoI2 either.

Loaded up as England an dreleased France: It's 51 factories he gets.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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baronbowden
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 8:05:03 AM
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King of Men wrote:
By the way, as we are doing peace by edits, are we also doing faction entries and exits by edit?


As of now I believe people can leave factions voluntarily, so I think the only via edit will have to be if Tazzo/Jacob/Bowden want someone booted. Unless we can mod in a remove from faction; yea edits.

I have built a ton in France as well because I had bulk of my forces stationed there. So to be honest I have 0 clue how many you keep versus destroyed. Blayne/Tazzo need to load up and tell us what happened with Columbia etc as those are fairly recent.

**Update apparently you cant leave a faction either if at war. So backstabbing your faction can only happen once you are at peace; use it wisely.

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Anders
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 8:11:22 AM
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Bruce, DO NOT BUILD FACTORIES IN NON-CORE STATES.
FFS, didn't you ever play HoI2?

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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baronbowden
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 8:23:21 AM
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Anders wrote:
Bruce, DO NOT BUILD FACTORIES IN NON-CORE STATES.
FFS, didn't you ever play HoI2?


LOL no no i never did play HOI2. HOI3 was my jam.

I didnt even know there was a difference except in how many factories were allowed per state for non cores in hoi4.

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baronbowden
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:43:47 AM
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Ok so I tested

Looks like England kept about 29 of the France factories; so it looks like when you annex you keep about half.

I have looked through entire thread; I cant find one instance where before I asked KOM ever broadcast he was buffing smaller nations by 30% and unilaterally cutting the majors. Blayne has stated it was discussed and agreed upon, but there just is no record of there ever being a chance for it to be caught before it was too late. I also do not tbh KOM think it is fair to say the save was available, as without the formula, the save really wouldn't have given enough reference.

I personally think the only good solution was to fix it via starting at 35, and going with a clean slate where everyone gets the amount of factories they deserved based on a *fair* conversion; BUT the poll was split down the middle.

The next most grasped on solution is to just remove all factories from minor AI, but that bothers me even more than doing nothing. For example, when I was busy thrashing Jacob/KOM, Fiv via anders didnt enter the war because he was getting control of New Zealand and then Mongolia for those factories.. If they didnt exist; he would have had a ton of juicy factories from Germany. BUT I cant deny there is a TON of geographical lottery involved that benefit Blayne/Tazzo and then Bowden/FIV the most.

So closing the topic (and by no means do I think this is fair to Jacob/Bowden/Tazzo/Golle, but thankfully we arnt all in the same faction) unless before Sunday there is a better consensus that starting in 35 with a proper mod is clearly the choice of the group to close the topic I am using KOM's Venice as a baseline (He got 93% of the baseline in civ factories) and the fact that having run a simulation twice tonight and looking at factories strictly via the save most players have been able to more than double their factories at this point. (exact formula is (baseline factories*.91)*2= # to be removed)


UCA will have factories removed. The exact amount will be 18 military (his baseline should have been 21), 32 civilian (baseline should have been 57)

I will consult with KOM regarding the viability of editing in the removed factories from every other nation and make a determination on this before Friday







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JacobGood
Posted: Tuesday, December 13, 2016 6:36:59 PM
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I don't think you grasp the point. Let's set aside the factories. When those minors collapsed to tazzzo and Blayne they also gave something like 10k equipment. 10k a piece!! Each factory that was used has already made Blayne to be at least half my strength, compared to Vicky where it was a maybe 25%. It's not like they didn't know that would happen- why else fabricate on all the minors as soon as able?

One could easily argue that the whole reason Blayne is able to project power in to India is due to ill gotten gains. Do a little more research Bruce. This game is almost over, and I don't want conversion cheese to ruin it.
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