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dragoon9105
Posted: Saturday, May 20, 2017 6:09:29 AM
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And the Conversion Thread.

Now I think we decided something some, Jame's system for Colonization.

Need to assign Achievement Point Values, How were picking Ideas/Bonuses for doing well in Europe, Converter Modernization, ect. None of this is pressing of course, since Ck2 is probably going to take a while.
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, May 20, 2017 6:32:59 AM
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I'd like to get CK started before worrying about the next one.

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Vaniver
Posted: Saturday, May 20, 2017 7:16:19 AM
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Are we planning on having any effects from CK2 on Vicky or HOI?
King of Men
Posted: Saturday, May 20, 2017 10:48:41 PM
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Not directly, no. Only the ones mediated by EU4.

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Vaniver
Posted: Monday, May 22, 2017 2:11:05 AM
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Thought: we should make various hardcoded EU4 things (which religion gets the reformation, the HRE, where the Renaissance spawns, etc.) depend on CK2 properties. For example:

Reformation should happen to the largest religion (measured by provinces) instead of Catholicism.

Any religion with a moral authority above 75% can have a Defender of the Faith.

The ruler with the most number of tributaries becomes emperor of the HRE, with all of their tributaries as part of the HRE.

---

I don't think we could track this as well without changing the mod, but it seems like we could do something based off the Hermetic society for the Renaissance. (Something like, whenever someone ranks up in the society, that adds a point to the county / region they're in, and then later the region with the most points is where the Renaissance will spawn.)

Alternatively, at conversion time, add together number of cities and independent rulers in an area, and the region with the most gets the Renaissance.

---

I also think it would be excellent to auction off / somehow collectively decide religion modifiers. Norse is probably going to end up being big, and so should probably get some heresies or other branches. We might have to have a Mutazilite branch of Islam that looks more like Waldensian than it does like Sunni (like, we should still have the +100% heir chance from number of wives, but probably there should be a tech or idea cost reduction rather than a bonus to cavalry).
Mark0628
Posted: Monday, May 22, 2017 6:11:31 AM
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makes more sense to just make most of these things biddable in my opinion if we don't want an hre just give it to a opm somewhere in america.
Vaniver
Posted: Monday, May 22, 2017 9:33:05 PM
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Mark0628 wrote:
makes more sense to just make most of these things biddable in my opinion
Agreed that makes some sense; main two reasons I have for making it more achievement-based is because 1) what the religions look like will determine what actions people should take in CKII, including actions starting soon and 2) religions will impact multiple people; it can make sense to have your national schismatic religion but probably all the Sunnis will want to stay Sunni, or all the Catholics will want to stay Catholic. And if people are bidding on multi-national effects with the same currency they'd use to bid on single-national effects, then we have game theory problems.

To elaborate on 1, Waldensian in EU4 is much more attractive than Catholic, which implies that a Catholic ruler might want to secretly convert to Waldensian and use the resulting society to convert much of their country to Waldensian, and then swap; if they expect to have some control over what Catholic looks like, then that's a worse strategy. And if control over Catholic is decided by, say, dynastic / national control over the Pope, then they need to start optimizing for that more heavily.

Mark0628 wrote:
if we don't want an hre just give it to a opm somewhere in america.
I believe that in the typical converter, the HRE is tied to the actual HRE title, which would imply it won't show up.
dragoon9105
Posted: Monday, May 22, 2017 9:46:49 PM
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Having the Largest Religion experience the Reformation is a neat Idea, but Its a fairly large modding load. And if say, Hellenism becomes the dominant religion, how do you split it up, just relocalize reformed and protestant to be Hellenic themes instead of christian?
Vaniver
Posted: Monday, June 05, 2017 11:39:46 PM
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Proposed ruler conversion rules:

Monarchs have only a handful of details; age, three skills (dip/adm/mil), and up to three personality traits. Typically, monarchs in EU4 get personality traits at 15, after ruling for 10 years, and after ruling for 25 years. Let's just let people start off with up to three traits for both them and their heir.

Your ruling monarch can be selected from any of your dynasty's top-level rulers, and your heir can be selected from any other top-level ruler or your dynastic heir to one of the top-level titles. (If you had just the Kingdom of Jerusalem, then the king becomes the monarch and his heir becomes your heir. If you have two independent kings of Ireland and Scotland, you have 2 choices for monarch (Ireland or Scotland) and three choices for heir (the other ruler, or either of the two heirs). This choice shouldn't force who is the senior partner in the personal union; if Scotland is the better country but Ireland has the better king, you can have Scotland as the senior partner with the union ruled by Ireland's king.

For the personalities, you can pick any where you meet the EU4 requirements (typically relating to score, but sometimes also whether or not the ruler is a general) have the corresponding CKII trait (and have none of the anti-traits):

Just: Just
Righteous: all vassals have a positive opinion of you, rank 3 or higher of a religious order; Not Arbitrary
Tolerant: any religious tolerance, Cynical; Not Zealous
Free Thinker: Cynical, Erudite, Mutazilite; Not Zealous, Ashari, rank 3 or higher of Hermetic Order
Calm: Patient, Celibate
Zealous: Zealous, Ashari, Celibate, rank 3 or higher of a religious order
Pious: Humble, Ashari, Mastermind Theologian, Theologian, rank 3 or higher of a religious order
Lawgiver: Just, Faqih
Midas Touched: Midas Touched
Incorruptible: Honest; Not Deceitful, Celibate, rank 3 or higher of a religious order
Architectual Visionary: Architect, have built a tower
Scholar: Scholar, Erudite, Faqih, Hafiz, rank 3 or higher of Hermetic Order
Careful: Craven, Patient
Entrepreneur: Midas Touched, have built a trade route or have at least 5 trade posts within realm
Industrious: Ambitious, Administrator, Gardener
Expansionist: One kingdom is in the top three for number of provinces (not holdings!).
Navigator: One kingdom is in the top three for number of fleet levies.
Well Connected: (Every councilor has at least 15 in the relevant stat, and 3 have at least 20) or (At least 30 rank in Friends, with unlanded characters as 0, barons as 1, counts as 2, dukes as 3, and kings as 4.) or (Has at least 10 alliances)
Secretive: Intricate Webweaver, Deceitful, Master Schemer
Intricate Webweaver: Intricate Webweaver, Master Schemer
Benevolent: Charitable, Kind; Not Cruel, Greedy, Cannibal
Charismatic Negotiator: Grey Eminence, Gregarious, Socializer
Silver Tongue: Grey Eminence, Gregarious, Socializer
Bold Fighter: Brave, Brilliant Strategist, Duelist, Berserker
Tactical Genius: Brilliant Strategist, Genius, Strategist, Game Master
Fierce Negotiator:
Conqueror: Won an invasion / war that could have given the Conqueror nickname
Strict: Just, Zealous, Organizer, at least 3 Leadership traits
Inspiring Leader: Brilliant Strategist, Inspiring Leader, at least 3 Leadership traits
Martial Educator: Brilliant Strategist, Strategist, Organizer, at least 3 Leadership traits
Kind-Hearted: Kind, Charitable, Gardener; Not Deceitful, Cruel, Greedy, Cannibal
Fertile: Master Seducer(tress), Lustful, Hedonist; Not Homosexual, Chaste, Eunuch
Immortal: Immortal
Well Advised: Every councilor has at least 15 in the relevant stat, and 3 have at least 20.

(Alternatively, instead of having the player pick we do it collaboratively / by vote, so that

---

For skills, the following three options seem decent, listed in descending order of how much I like them:

Option A:

Skill is based on personal attributes (stewardship -> administrative, diplomacy -> diplomatic, martial -> military) and is a simple formula, with: 0-4: 0, 5-8: 2, 9-12: 3, 13-16: 4, 17-20: 5, 21+: 6.

Option B:

Again, skill is based on personal attributes, but are now determined relatively, according to the lucky nations table and in such a way as favors the players (specifically, the player score cdf is as close as possible to the lucky nation cdf without going above it). For example, suppose we convert with 12 characters; they'll be sorted in order of attribute for each attribute separately, and the top two characters will get a 6, the next two a 5, the next two a 4, the next three a 3, the next 2 a 2, and the last one a 1.

Option C:

Skill isn't tied to the actual characters from CKII, but instead is bought with the same points from dynasty score as part of the general auction.
Vaniver
Posted: Monday, June 05, 2017 11:41:05 PM
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dragoon9105 wrote:
Having the Largest Religion experience the Reformation is a neat Idea, but Its a fairly large modding load. And if say, Hellenism becomes the dominant religion, how do you split it up, just relocalize reformed and protestant to be Hellenic themes instead of christian?
I think if we just swap out the religion in the events / etc., it should be fairly easy, but then people will get a bunch of weird events ("why the heck am I hearing about the Pope instead of the Caliph?" ) . And yeah, it seems like you could just come up with appropriate variants.
dragoon9105
Posted: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 12:19:05 AM
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Players cant be Lucky Nations I thought.
Vaniver
Posted: Tuesday, June 06, 2017 4:07:45 PM
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dragoon9105 wrote:
Players cant be Lucky Nations I thought.
They can't; we'll be setting those values by hand anyway, I assume. The idea was to get a distribution like the in-game one, but more favorable; we could just as easily do it with the normal one.
Vaniver
Posted: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 4:17:18 AM
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I feel like we should lock down more things about conversion, since many decisions people are making now are likely to be guided by conversion details. (Is a thousand gold better spent on building two new castles, or getting mercenaries to take over additional provinces?) It seems like we should have X->Y mostly locked down before we start X, not before we start Y. (Which, ideally, means finishing the CKII->EU4 conversion soon enough that we can finish the EU4->V2 conversion before EU4 starts.)

Given that we go through about 20-25 years a session (and have had a ton of rehosts eating time, so maybe smooth sessions would be more like 30), we have something like 7 sessions left in CKII if we vote to stop at the earliest date. That's about two months from now, and slightly more than a month if things start going faster.

I'm also finding myself worried about the voting dynamics, since it might be heavily influenced by people's current characters. (For example, if your current leader sucks, maybe you should vote to prolong, hoping that you can get a better character in 50 years; if you win the RNG lottery and have an immortal character, you want to stop as quickly as possible so you get out of the time period when people can use assassins.) It might be better to have people vote to switch games, and once half the players have voted to switch, switch after two more sessions? (Then there's time to get things in order for conversion, as opposed to being surprised by it, and people likely won't be voting based on their current rulers.)

---

Have we decided anything about tech conversion? There's unfortunately not all that much space to vary things, since in base almost everyone starts at 3 and it's unlikely that any players will fall far behind. The only things the tech groups change these days are the unit types, and it seems like we'll probably just let people pick, or give everyone Western.

But it also seems weird to make tech from CKII irrelevant beyond its in-game effect, especially since we may only be playing CKII for 150 more years (and, in general, that the amount of time left is uncertain). It seems like the primary things that we can vary are development (which is currently set mostly by buildings built), starting monarch points, and institution location. For example, we could have the Renaissance spawn in one of the provinces tied for highest total tech level, for example, which would probably be deterministically one province, have the country for the Printing Press be the kingdom with the highest average tech level, have the cities that Printing Press immediately spreads to be set by this, and so on.
dragoon9105
Posted: Wednesday, June 07, 2017 4:29:06 AM
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I think establishing what score does is the most important period since some people, might not be continuing in Europe come conversion time.

Is it going to be a pool of earned points to buy Development/Ideas/ect from?

Will we auction stuff off?

Or something else?

I'm sort of in favor of the auction idea, since that will ensure 1, everyone doesn't get the same build, 2 the best stuff like discipline ends up being quite costly.
King of Men
Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 6:30:59 AM
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I was thinking we would auction off custom ideas. An alternative is to have a tag auction, ie you can convert as Prussia with its discipline ideas and whatnot.

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Vaniver
Posted: Thursday, June 08, 2017 7:56:16 PM
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King of Men wrote:
I was thinking we would auction off custom ideas. An alternative is to have a tag auction, ie you can convert as Prussia with its discipline ideas and whatnot.
Tag auctions seem easier to implement but less custom. I have a vague sense of how I'd design a portfolio auction for this sort of thing to be incentive compatible, but it seems like it might be a nightmare to get right.

So each country has 10 idea slots total; 2 'tradition' slots available at the start of the game, 7 slots that unlock as you get other ideas, and a final slot that unlocks with the seventh slot. (So it's really a double slot, six single slots, and another double slot.)

If we want to ensure diversity, my guess is we have something like 4 'units' of each idea, so out of the ~12 players, only 4 of them can get -tech cost ideas, only 4 can get -idea cost ideas, only 4 can get +discipline ideas, etc.; people put in bids for all ~100 ideas, and we do some integer programming to determine the allocation that meets some criterion (like maximizing satisfaction or something). Not clear what we do with ordering, here; we probably want some of the slots to be early slots or late slots, so that some of the people who pick an in-demand idea have to have it unlock later, as opposed to being a tradition.

If we want things to be simple, we just use the basic costs from the nation designer, and people have a budget of points dependent on their conversion score to spend on both government type and ideas. This will likely have less diversity, since everyone can take discipline if they want to, but will lead to some diversity by necessity--the players with the most points can have lots of good ideas, but the players with less points will have to choose lower cost options or put good ideas later to not pay the penalty for having ideas be early. (Not everyone has the spare points to pick up Prussian Government, etc.)

My suspicion is that we're best off having people build nations in the nation designer with a budget determined by their CKII score, with a minimum of something like 100 or 150 and score building up from there (with new players for EU4 coming in with the minimum, or the ideas for the relevant pre-existing tag). There's some question of whether the points are relative or not--we could decide that the top scorer in CKII will be guaranteed to get 800 points to spend on ideas, with everyone else scaled appropriately, or we could set a value for achievements / dynastic score (say, ten points for each achievement point) and that ends up with whatever it ends up with. The latter is simpler, and I'm leaning towards it.
Vaniver
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 5:41:09 AM
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Points of uncertainty remaining that I'm aware of, in roughly decreasing order of importance:


1) How ideas will be determined.
2) How dynasty score will be calculated and converted to achievement points.
3) What, if anything, techs will convert as.
4) How starting prestige/ducats/etc. will be determined in EU4.
5) Religion modifications
6) Institution modifications
7) Event/decision modifications
8) Age modifications

1: I discussed a bunch of ideas earlier; I recommend we allow players to either take the historical ideas for the most appropriate tag (subject to GM approval) or to create custom ideas in the nation designer, with a budget set by their achievement points. (I currently expect something like 100 points to start, plus 10 nation designer points per achievement point will work well; it seems unlikely that anyone will get more than 70 points.)

2: It seems way simpler to use dynasty score than character prestige+piety. Both options will vary heavily based on how long we play CKII, so it seems like this should be normalized in some fashion (the most prestigious dynasty receives 30 points, say, and all other dynasties get the appropriate fraction). [I can also write something to pull prestige+piety out of the saves, and so we use the last known score for all characters in the dynasties, but it's not obvious this will be much better.]

3: I suspect the best thing to do is include them in the development conversion, and the simplest thing to do is ignore it. (At present, it looks like player realms and capitals are actually underbuilt relative to the AI, which is not a big surprise, but may not be what we want to happen in conversion, and they seem likely that they'll be overteched, which can fix that.)

4: Since prestige is national instead of dynastic, a rank-based conversion seems appropriate. (Rank heads of state by their CKII prestige; the first 3 get 100 prestige, the next 3 90 prestige, etc.) My impression is that CKII ducats are less valuable than EU4 ducats, but I don't have a good sense of how much less valuable. (Somewhere between a tenth and a half?)

5: The simplest thing to do is make no modifications. If any seem appropriate, we should probably settle them by vote or GM fiat rather than during-game achievements.

6: We should move where Renaissance and Printing Press spawn. One possibility is adding up Town Infrastructure + Tolerance for all provinces, sorting, and either going with the top province or randomly selecting from the list (with a probability determined by softmax).

7: A bunch of historical tags have a lot of events associated with them. The simplest option is to simply remove them all. It seems somewhat better to somehow do a mapping and figure out who should get what events (or mixture of events).

8: Currently, ages have powers that can be selected by particular tags (like the Portuguese Colonial Growth power). We probably want to reassign these, maybe using the same mechanism as the event/decision modifications.
dragoon9105
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 6:13:39 AM
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Were still pretty far off from conversion honestly.

1. I think were going with an auction. There's a few ways we can do it, Score determining pick order, or being allowance. If were going to have idea Uniqueness (The person with discipline idea is the only person with the discipline idea, or everyone else can grab it for the same cost ect) and base prices needa be determined

2. King of Men supposably has something in the converter that works.

3. Starting the map out in it's default state for this is probably fine, there really isn't much disparity in vanilla Eu4 outside of places like Africa and America for tech.

4. Converter already does this

5. Leaving them Vanilla is probably the best since people have already sorta made their decisions based on it. Though I don't really think anyone would care if say Mark converts as Waldensian and would prefer to use protestant mechanics instead of reformed, and IIRC its fairly easy to mod.

6. Using the version of Institutions that the Vanilla Ck2-Eu4 converter produces is actually rather nice already. The region bias is removed allowing them to essentially spawn in any high development province.

7. Since the converter assigns region appropriate tags but otherwise can be rather random for what people convert as all National Flavor events/decisions are probably gonna be removed. I should point out, technically forming a nation now allows one to keep thier Ideas, so we can leave formable nations in the game with the stipulation that they must keep thier starting Idea sets.

8. We can probably mod the ages to open all Ideas up and have the Nation specific ones to be worth more splendor.
Vaniver
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 7:22:29 AM
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dragoon9105 wrote:
3. Starting the map out in it's default state for this is probably fine, there really isn't much disparity in vanilla Eu4 outside of places like Africa and America for tech.
Right, I'm talking about what CKII techs should get you, and it's pretty clearly not EU4 techs. Since they're on the province-level, the obvious thing for them to also correspond to is development. (Maybe starting monarch points? But that seems better to have as a fixed amount for everyone.)

dragoon9105 wrote:
I should point out, technically forming a nation now allows one to keep thier Ideas, so we can leave formable nations in the game with the stipulation that they must keep thier starting Idea sets.
The main reason to form nations is to get all of those juicy cores, which seems likely to be imbalanced. (It might make sense for RoW?)

dragoon9105 wrote:
8. We can probably mod the ages to open all Ideas up and have the Nation specific ones to be worth more splendor.
I don't think it's possible to change the splendor cost for individual abilities.
Firehound15
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 8:03:41 AM
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Formable nations could be added in as a sort of achievement for players. Conquer provinces x, y, z and you receive some sort of bonus for your success.
dragoon9105
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 10:40:44 AM
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You dont get cores anymore from any formable nations, You do get permanent claims however which are honestly almost as good.
Firehound15
Posted: Sunday, June 18, 2017 4:14:29 PM
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dragoon9105 wrote:
You dont get cores anymore from any formable nations, You do get permanent claims however which are honestly almost as good.


Which is why I suggest giving a prestige boost, money, or tech points as an alternative reward for the necessary conquests.
King of Men
Posted: Friday, June 30, 2017 7:43:44 AM
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So to update on this, I have finally been inspired to work on the converter again; right now I'm chasing down issues with the savegame format in the latest DLCs. The converter now supports hospitals like other province holdings; I'm trying to figure out why family palaces are being ignored.

Absent gods help us all; it's because "demesne" has been replaced by "dmn" in the savegame. Rolleyes

There, I fixed it. Honestly I'm kind of impressed that the converter would even run on savegames with these sorts of changes.

Read my blog.
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The Professor
Posted: Saturday, July 01, 2017 5:30:30 AM
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King of Men wrote:
So to update on this, I have finally been inspired to work on the converter again; right now I'm chasing down issues with the savegame format in the latest DLCs. The converter now supports hospitals like other province holdings; I'm trying to figure out why family palaces are being ignored.

Absent gods help us all; it's because "demesne" has been replaced by "dmn" in the savegame. Rolleyes

There, I fixed it. Honestly I'm kind of impressed that the converter would even run on savegames with these sorts of changes.


With enough try-catchs anything runs with anything!

So I'm wondering something from my Theoretical Computer Science class; we talk about Turing Machines and Decideability. Your parser is written in C++ which is Turing Complete. Therefor, it is possible that your parser could be given input where you cannot determine a priori whether it will terminate or go on forever? (Presumably you might run out of memory and crash, but ignoring that)

Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
King of Men
Posted: Sunday, July 02, 2017 1:06:43 AM
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We always ignore merely practical concerns like running out of memory when discussing Turing computability. Big Grin

I don't think there's any finite input that would cause the parser to run forever; although the language it is written in (C++) is Turing-complete, the language it implements (Paradox savegame code) is not. Paradox savegame code has neither loops nor recursion. So the parser should halt for all finite inputs. (Obviously it won't halt for infinite input, but that's cheating.) In terms of Turing's tape analogy, there's no instruction that can make the parser jump back an arbitrary number of spaces on the tape; it has a ratchet, as it were - once it has parsed a token it is done with the token and will never return to it. So it must reach the end of its input eventually.

Quote:
With enough try-catchs anything runs with anything!


That's true, but I don't in fact use try-catch blocks for the converter. So it was just running as normal on input it didn't understand.

Read my blog.
Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
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