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King of Men
Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 8:26:26 AM
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The game is on this Sunday. I'm gathering the decisions in this new thread to make them easy to find and easy to see; I'll eventually transfer the ongoing ones to the sticky rules post. This is for CK2; rules for EU4 will follow later. Note that I am largely following Dragoon's suggestions here.

  • Size limits: We will keep this at 150 baronies, as before; for simplicity the same limit will apply to merchant republics, but with an option of returning to the 100 limit if 150 is too powerful. The enforcement will be by GM edit between sessions; the edit may not leave the editee at precisely 150 realm size, depending on how convenient that is. Ideally people will do their own realm-size tracking and save the GM some work.
  • Achievements (and missions): We can tweak these a bit, and add the missions. It doesn't seem necessary to have them in a tearing hurry; I will make a separate thread to suggest and discuss them, then finalise the list before the second session. There will definitely not be a meta achievement for designing an achievement, however; don't even try.
  • Score: This time around we have the advantage of having a score algorithm already written. Per Dragoon's request I will slightly tweak upwards the weight of Empires and Kingdoms, but otherwise leave as-is.
  • Starting scenario: Charlemagne. As Dragoon notes, the realm size limit makes it somewhat less necessary to even out the holdings - if you're in a poor area you can take more counties, so it balances.
  • Starting characters: Custom, but use the template Dragoon designed. We will spend the first half hour or so of the first session setting things up.
  • Starting position: We'll pick Dukes, or patricians with a few counties in the case of MRs, and make 'em custom as above. They don't need to be exactly balanced but should have about 10-20 baronies (on the lower end for patricians, which have the powerful House barony). No starting positions including Constantinople or Rome, please.
  • Conversion: As before we will start voting on this after 200 years. To succeed, a conversion vote must get a 'yes' from at least half the active players; in other words an abstention or a failure to vote will count as a 'no'.
  • Playable area: Initially, no playing outside the starting area, ie western Europe to a little east of the Danube. You can wage war outside the playable area and spread your dynasty there, but not play the resulting kingdoms; this will be enforced similarly to the realm size - in other words, if you conquer Russia and still have it by session end, it will be edited away. An exception is land held for active Crusades. The playable area will expand as we go.
  • Tribals and Nomads are playable (Nomads will be Unstable, however); but they must reform by 200 years after game start, or be balkanised by edit. Tribal armies may not be used in offensive wars, except for Prepared Invasion troops.
  • Seniority inheritance is banned except for republics.
  • Holy Orders may not be used for offensive wars, including Crusades. They may not be kept on in peacetime, and wars may not be drawn out for the purpose of keeping HOs. This will be enforced by editing in peace, possibly WP, where necessary.
  • All meta discussion should take place in the forums, between sessions; not on TeamSpeak during the game!
  • We'll nerf adventurers, they're clearly more trouble than they're worth.

    Regarding EU4, I will just note that we will probably have something like the Tallest Poppy rule I suggested in the discussion thread, similar colonisation limits, possibly a limit on number of ingame player alliances, and there will not be PUs in the auction but same-dynasty kingdoms might instead convert as marches at the player's option.

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
  • The Professor
    Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 4:28:02 PM
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    We should make it next sunday and have a new thread at Paradox for recruitment, as well as reddit.

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    LordSauronOfHertfordshire
    Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 4:30:27 PM
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    I am in favor of Blayne's proposal not least of which because this weekend is family visit weekend and so I almost certainly won't be able to play.

    Why conquer when diplomacy is just so much easier.
    Vaniver
    Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 6:05:51 PM
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    King of Men wrote:
    there will not be PUs in the auction but same-dynasty kingdoms might instead convert as marches at the player's option.
    This seems like it mostly discourages expansion in some contexts--if you are playing England, say, having Ireland as a march seems mostly useless relative to it being a bunch of split OPMs that you can easily gobble. The main thing you get is the extra auction mana from having another king in your dynasty. For people in the center, this makes sense--having a buffer whose armies can join yours helps quite a bit.

    [edit]Also, some clarification on what the 'playable area' is seems like it will be useful. South Spain is a very different spot depending on whether or not you can expand into Morocco (and I would assume that the intention is 'no').
    dragoon9105
    Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 6:20:14 PM
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    Well I feel we should be able to by alot more development from score to offset how horrible northern germany, Poland and other parts of Europe convert
    Vaniver
    Posted: Thursday, October 05, 2017 6:22:54 PM
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    dragoon9105 wrote:
    Well I feel we should be able to by alot more development from score to offset how horrible northern germany, Poland and other parts of Europe convert
    This is either because 1) the AI isn't spending enough money on developing the buildings there relative to buildings elsewhere or 2) it's screwed over by the province mapping. Can we get a map of the CKII to EU4 mapping?

    King of Men wrote:
    They don't need to be exactly balanced but should have about 10-20 baronies (on the lower end for patricians, which have the powerful House barony). No starting positions including Constantinople or Rome, please.
    For tribal starts, does that imply at least 5 counties? (Assuming they have a tribe + cathedral in each county.)
    King of Men
    Posted: Friday, October 06, 2017 7:53:47 AM
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    The Professor wrote:
    We should make it next sunday and have a new thread at Paradox for recruitment, as well as reddit.


    Eh. We rarely get anyone from Paradox, and I don't recall ever getting anyone from Reddit. I'd rather keep up the momentum and play this week. Nevertheless, Pdox thread.

    Quote:
    For tribal starts, does that imply at least 5 counties? (Assuming they have a tribe + cathedral in each county.)


    I suppose. Tribals can be on the low end of baronies, they don't really depend on holdings for their troops, right?

    Quote:
    This seems like it mostly discourages expansion in some contexts--if you are playing England, say, having Ireland as a march seems mostly useless relative to it being a bunch of split OPMs that you can easily gobble. The main thing you get is the extra auction mana from having another king in your dynasty. For people in the center, this makes sense--having a buffer whose armies can join yours helps quite a bit.


    I see your point, but I'm not sure what to do about it. It seems to me that we need to reward creating kingdoms of your dynasty slightly more than just by auction score, but a PU is too powerful. Anyway, what's stopping England from creating a march on the Continent?

    Quote:
    some clarification on what the 'playable area' is seems like it will be useful.


    Right. I think I'd include the coast of Africa - say to the Atlas mountains - but initially not Egypt or the Levant. Western Anatolia but not the eastern half. Russia to the Dniepr.



    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
    Yami-Yagari
    Posted: Friday, October 06, 2017 8:00:52 AM
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    Will we be applying balkanisation this time around?
    King of Men
    Posted: Friday, October 06, 2017 8:24:16 AM
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    No, the realm size limit should take care of that.

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
    Yami-Yagari
    Posted: Friday, October 06, 2017 8:30:04 AM
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    King of Men wrote:
    No, the realm size limit should take care of that.
    and if itdoesnt?
    dragoon9105
    Posted: Friday, October 06, 2017 8:48:49 AM
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    150 Realm size is rather small, So long as were properly enforcing it this time it shouldn't be an issue.

    Also I do think we should recruit in Paradox. By limiting the map boundaries and adding the more dynamic cb's we ensure new players don't fall behind as drastically. Even if they don't arrive for the first session having pickups to play regions that go unloved would be nice.

    Also something else that, I myself brought up at the end of last session. Should I set up a discord? For those that dont know its basically a more modern updated version of teamspeak. More control over channels and stuff on our end (And no waiting around to give people permission to join the Paradox channel), Allows for a general chat and file sharing directly right there in the said chat, ect.

    You can even technically set up diplomacy rooms, but its a little more Janky than ederon in that respect.
    The Professor
    Posted: Friday, October 06, 2017 3:49:44 PM
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    King of Men wrote:
    Recruits



    I have a group of people I can probably get some people from, also whenever we start 'this soon' the result is always problems in the first session, I'd like us to start off right and make sure everything is settled properly.

    For example, character customization, even if simplified we haven't even started this IIRC/AFAIK, do you really want to do all of this *tomorrow*?

    Also Lord Ederon is slow on account creation, I'm not sure why he hasn't made a capta system for account creation.

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    KhanXLT
    Posted: Friday, October 06, 2017 5:43:16 PM
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    It looked like everyone is getting the same dude, stats and traits wise.
    Ranger9000
    Posted: Friday, October 06, 2017 9:21:00 PM
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    I think it's more we are only picking one rank 3 education and 2 good traits. Other then that the characters are standardized.
    The Professor
    Posted: Saturday, October 07, 2017 5:39:36 AM
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    Can we get details on character creation, and confirmation if we're starting this Sunday? It seems like we have still a lot of undecided information.

    Quote:

    Seniority inheritance is banned except for republics.


    Wait, why? This was my main way of not giving a shit about Hadogei's subversion of my dynasty. I'd want it to be against the rules of marrying characters within a players realm of their dynasty in that case.

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    Ranger9000
    Posted: Saturday, October 07, 2017 5:48:18 AM
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    Same on the inheritance thing. Otherwise hadogai would have subverted my nation early on
    The Professor
    Posted: Saturday, October 07, 2017 5:57:32 AM
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    IIRC it's also one of the few non-terrible laws available in the early start, gavelkind is just so exceptionally bad, the realm splitting is bad enough but the way it traces the inheritance weirdly to give it to a non-dynast uncle is just stupid and you have nothing you can do about it.





    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    dragoon9105
    Posted: Saturday, October 07, 2017 6:17:24 AM
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    The reason its banned is becuase Somebody, not naming names here, Used it to completly break the Eu4 section and is basically the catalyst to our restart v.v.

    It also can be abused to get around the size limit, by simply assassinating your family at the start of every session, getting thier gold and land, allowing you to war as if you never actually gave it away, and then just give it away right before the session ends knowing full well you'll get some if not all of it back in a few years.

    Defend your titles people, its not hard, Marry all your kids yourself, give them titular titles so they don't leave (Or make them take the vows) and if you find someone screwing with your dynasty, Attack them like I did.



    Also while not explicitly against the rules, don't try to get cute around the size limit via player vassals swearing fealty and being granted independence. Ck2's got a lot of little exploits, We shouldn't have to list them all.
    King of Men
    Posted: Saturday, October 07, 2017 8:11:45 AM
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    Quote:
    Should I set up a discord?


    We can try it, but I propose that we use TeamSpeak for this first session as everyone is used to it and knows where to find it. Set up the Discord as an extra channel and we can migrate gently. Smile

    Quote:
    and if it doesnt?


    Maybe you could be a bit more specific about what problem you foresee.

    Quote:
    The reason its banned is becuase Somebody, not naming names here, Used it to completly break the Eu4 section and is basically the catalyst to our restart v.v.


    I mean, I see your point, but won't the size limit take care of that if we actually enforce it? (And as noted, I don't think we should have PUs this time). Our nameless player could presumably not have become twice the size of everyone else if we'd actually noticed that he was over the size limit?

    Quote:
    It also can be abused to get around the size limit


    Yes, ok. In principle we could just forbid this exploit, but honestly I don't want to be the one checking up on it for a dozen players.

    Quote:
    confirmation if we're starting this Sunday?


    After discussion with Dragoon: Yes, start on Sunday.

    Quote:
    details on character creation


    We'll use the ingame character creator. Everyone will play the same character: Skilled Tactician, Brave, Patient.

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
    The Professor
    Posted: Saturday, October 07, 2017 9:17:21 PM
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    Seriously if we just *enforced the rules* and double checked everyone's realms at conversion (not necessarily every session, players can self police out of paranoia for the GM) there isn't a need to ban seniority.

    I really *don't* want to police and micromanage my realm and dynasty, esp. as it gets huge, and esp. when they're landed because the AI is absolutely retarded and needs significant baby sitting.

    e: Also only Mark abused it possibly, everyone else used it as god intended, to ignore having to manage their dynasty outside of the main branch.

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    King of Men
    Posted: Saturday, October 07, 2017 10:41:07 PM
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    Quick note on Hellenic: Ranger has requested, and I'm ok with, restoring Hellenic to convert using the same mechanics as the other religions. Anyone object?

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
    dragoon9105
    Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 1:44:30 AM
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    Playing a Pagan surrounded by Muslims and Christians is already a huge challenge, by all means im fine with it.
    King of Men
    Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 7:48:58 AM
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    About characters: Any level-3 education trait is fine. And create them with one son, to make random gameovers from assassination a bit less likely. Also, the rule from last time about a fifty-year moratorium on assassinating characters of other players' dynasties remains in effect. Smile

    Read my blog.
    Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
    The Professor
    Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 4:54:01 PM
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    edit nevermind KoM answered already.

    Can we update the rules thread, the people I've got interested are very confused, this is why I wanted an extra week.

    Their game can only exist to be won.
    Then so be it who else can see it done.
    dragoon9105
    Posted: Sunday, October 08, 2017 4:59:58 PM
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    Tell them to look at the paradox thread :/
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