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 Captain
Joined: 4/11/2013
Posts: 324
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First some Colonial Stuff
Take a look at whatever is going on with Elysiums VCs. Not only did they spawn on territory he fully owned, but its territory that I haven't controlled for approximately 30 years before the VCs even spawned yet I'm getting dinged for it. I get the feeling the game might still be assuming I'm there still due to the editing (I and the 'Elysium' CN also do not have any claims on the provs either)
Khan's got two provs that he or his CN took off a native that are out of playable region (Tuskegee and the other territory just south of it)
Atlassian AAR reward: Mana
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 General
Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 2,617
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Removal of Permanent claims from Brazil and China, and deduct any adm gained through them.
I have ghost armies, of 0 regiments, no idea why
Brettonia had ghost provinces, when I annex it, it still exists.
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 1st Lieutenant
Joined: 2/1/2013
Posts: 171
Location: Scotland
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Not sure its fair to take my claims (Or malaya's) if blayne can get away with using his permanent CORES to murder a player slot, but thats a GM decision...
As it stands there are no rules on this anywhere.
Vae Victis!
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 Lieutenant General
Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,148
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Malaya never got claims just a name change.
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 General of the Army
 
Joined: 11/17/2007
Posts: 8,434
Location: Time
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I did *take* the Mandate of Heaven; and it isn't clear to me if Losing the Mandate actually results in losing the claims; I've lost the tributary CB's and Unite China CB's, I think it's possible that keeping the permanent claims is WAD. The Wiki is silent.
In any case, permament claims means that I literally could not in game fabricate claims. It is safe to say that I would've been spending the entire time fabricating claims on every bordering province if I was able, so I don't think any admin should be removed; and this was an issue I raised last session.
Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
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General
Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 2,617
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We have removed nation forming decisions in the past for a reason, having Fiat ownership of land owned by a OTL country does not mean it's yours because you share a name.
Blayne you lose the claims when you lose the govt, you can test this with previous saves like the end save where you took it in the first place, did the old mandate owner still have claims?
Permanent claims give an extra 15% on core cost reduction and you cannot tell me you would have claimed the entirety of what you took from Yue to start the war.
I didn't put it in the thread last week because I assumed either you or James would have, You know take responsibility for your nations when they glitch out, for good or ill.
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 Optio
Joined: 5/22/2017
Posts: 233
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How exactly was the Mandate removed? That might explain what's going on.
Why conquer when diplomacy is just so much easier.
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 Legatus legionis
Joined: 11/23/2007
Posts: 8,470
Location: Nowhere
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I removed it by editing the savegame. I did not remove the permanent claims before this session because I wasn't able to determine if they were from the MoH or from culture, so I gave them the benefit of the doubt. Does anyone have a good way of determining that? I am reasonably convinced Malaya does not come into this since that wasn't a nation-forming decision, the tag is still BEI, I just changed the name in the mod.
Read my blog. Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
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1st Lieutenant
Joined: 2/1/2013
Posts: 171
Location: Scotland
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I brought it up because It was my understanding that he wanted to form the nation of Malaya and was told no, settling for a simple name switch. I switched to brazil after seeing said name switch thinking he had been given the go-ahead considering that it is not an explicit rule and the options were for some reason not blocked by the mod. In any case any argument revolving around permanent claims, cores, etc. must include him, as he is effected by any decision made.
Vae Victis!
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General
Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 2,617
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Malaya has no permanent claims James his tag is still BRU Permanent claims in the Chinese region is the sole domain of the Emperor of China, it is not a cultural thing, but simply another boon of the mandate. https://imgur.com/a/MjqP5
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General of the Army
Joined: 11/17/2007
Posts: 8,434
Location: Time
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KhanXLT wrote:We have removed nation forming decisions in the past for a reason, having Fiat ownership of land owned by a OTL country does not mean it's yours because you share a name.
Blayne you lose the claims when you lose the govt, you can test this with previous saves like the end save where you took it in the first place, did the old mandate owner still have claims?
Permanent claims give an extra 15% on core cost reduction and you cannot tell me you would have claimed the entirety of what you took from Yue to start the war.
I didn't put it in the thread last week because I assumed either you or James would have, You know take responsibility for your nations when they glitch out, for good or ill. Vaniver did put it in the thread last week, so it isn't like it went unmentioned, additionally, I don't agree that it follows that losing the government because of a bug means I should also lose every possible effect that came with it, I went to a considerable expense to acquire the title after all. Also I have cost core reduction as a part of my idea set. Additionally, ending the tributary status with Yue gave a truce of 5 years, I absolutely would have claimed every bordering province as that's what I usually do even with AI.
Their game can only exist to be won. Then so be it who else can see it done.
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1st Lieutenant
Joined: 2/1/2013
Posts: 171
Location: Scotland
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I know he didnt get any claims, but he wanted to form a nation http://eu4.paradoxwikis.com/Malayathe same way I did. He was told no and settled with just changing his name. Im certain he was able and still might be able to form that nation if he wanted to. If its not a rule then its up to you fine folks at the top to take it out. In any case, my argument about Yue stands. If he can control land by fiat, there should be no restrictions to anyone else. Its not like its hard to form claims anyways. What do you think those are? Such claims and cores are only worth the army that exists to enforce them. I am of the opinion that "Forming a nation" Is very similar to the U.S. in vicky declaring the west to be theirs and gaining cores. Its not that there is nobody to stop them, its that they dont care and claim everything west towards the setting sun. In Malays case he would claim hegemony over all of his claimed territory, and still be required to take it by force. The same goes for me. They are no different then your neighbor saying give me MY victory card. As for the 15% admin costs, I dont believe for a minute that is where your argument is coming from. Your issue is that I hod a claim on your Brazilian province next to dragoons, and its a threat that I might use it to oust you from your Columbia colonies. If we are going to have a discussion let us at least make it an honest one.
Vae Victis!
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General
Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 2,617
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Yes Blayne, but you ended up taking more then border provinces did you? Unless you took espionage in 5 years you would have been able to claim 3 provinces at MOST. please don't be disingenuous with me, you can't pull wool over my eyes like that.
Yes, Mandate is bugged so it had to be removed from the game, so it should be gone wholesale I can't for the life of me think of a reason why anyone should be given free permanent claims on over 1500 development. ESPECIALLY since the downside of potentially having all those claims be given to another is forever gone. Do you understand why we shouldn't just leave you and James with a buff NO ONE else has or will get?
What do you consider as a "considerable expense" because beating up on a AI minor after clone spent two wars thrashing it does not register as an expense to me, at all.
James, the reason Lax asked to be made Malaya in an edit was because he doesn't have the decision, the mod stopped that. Yours is a unique case since you are legit the first independent CN player in the EU phase, so their decisions were never removed, Brazil, US, Columbia, the works should have been removed.
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1st Lieutenant
Joined: 2/1/2013
Posts: 171
Location: Scotland
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Alright, well in any case I maintain that If I am to be dealt with so too should Blayne. Like I said, I dont see them as being terribly valuable like they were a few DLCs ago when making claims was more difficult. If you do take mine, just realize that cores in the Americas are dirt cheap, rarely costing me more than 10-20 admin. I feel like the 15% admin that you would be taking would not be worth the time to do it, but thats up to the person making the edits. Cores in asia and in higher development locations I can understand being significantly more expensive, especially considering that without them the increase in unrest and potential rebellion can cause other problems beyond admin points.
Vae Victis!
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General
Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 2,617
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The imperialism you are describing in VIKI has a name here in eu, it is the Imperialism CB, permanent claims serve no purpose in that discussion, I should not be able to claim IG all of British isles and have Permanent claims be edited to me.
Of course both should be done equally, setting proper precedent is important.
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Legatus legionis
Joined: 11/23/2007
Posts: 8,470
Location: Nowhere
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Let's move this discussion to the discussion thread.
Read my blog. Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
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Captain
Joined: 1/21/2013
Posts: 324
Location: Australia
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If we do use the patch make sure that everyone uses generic missions and not like country specific ones.
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General of the Army
Joined: 11/17/2007
Posts: 8,434
Location: Time
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I put up my aar ontime within a minute last week but for some odd reason forgot to ask for I'm Feeling Lucky for Mana which I mentioned in chat before the session begun on Discord.
I'd like to have the MANA for last week, plus I'm feeling lucky for Mana for this week.
Their game can only exist to be won.
Then so be it who else can see it done.
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 Corporal
Joined: 2/10/2018
Posts: 31
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Just for the record, I explicitly asked for the forming of Malaya to be added to the game, so I could form it once I took the relevant lands. Instead I received no reply and just name changed to Malaya. This kinda fucked me as i was trying to say i need X lands to form Malaya and so i want X lands, stay away. but then name changed so X lands are now threatened. I was unaware there was a big controversy over forming nations and perm cores. I didn't make a big stink about it because it seemed there was a reason for the decision.
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Legatus legionis
Joined: 11/23/2007
Posts: 8,470
Location: Nowhere
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I would in any case not have made an edit to help one player's diplomacy.
Read my blog. Norway Rome The Khanate Scotland Scotinavia Christendie the Serene Republic has always been at war with the Bretons False Empire Caliphate Persians Russians English Hungarians Oceanians Saracen Jackal! Death, death, death to the Frogs barbarians infidels necromancers vodka-drinking hegemonists Sassenach nomad menace Yellow Menace heathen Great Old One!
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Corporal
Joined: 2/10/2018
Posts: 31
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I was unaware there was a rule against forming before i asked.
Lucky for Ducats
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General
Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 2,617
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As it seems we are moving patches this week,
Make sure that the new provs are cored+ stated if applicable to those it may concern.
Maybe make Isle of mann under golle, so someone doesn't snipe it as well.
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Lieutenant General
Joined: 8/25/2014
Posts: 2,148
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I apparently never said,
Lucky for Mana.
Now I have.
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General of the Army
Joined: 11/17/2007
Posts: 8,434
Location: Time
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Hadogei Edits: Quote:
probably something like :
midnapore, nasirabad, koch, bhagalpur, tirhut back to mahalavos
baghelkand, lower doab, kalpi. lucknow to mlechchhas
600 adm, 450 dip to mahalavos for the 4 provs removed across expansion limit
corruption reduced by 5
Their game can only exist to be won. Then so be it who else can see it done.
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General
Joined: 1/22/2013
Posts: 2,617
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Might be worth setting slots AI to not start dumb wars for the sake of preservation
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