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cueball
Posted: Friday, February 15, 2008 5:47:11 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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So how is it going...

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Anders
Posted: Friday, July 11, 2008 11:15:54 PM
 Generalfeldmarschall

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Having just installed the game, I notice Australia and UK has a couple extra LOCKED garrisons. Should an player be allowed to delete these, and do they actually UNLOCK at any time during the game in this mod?

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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cueball
Posted: Saturday, July 12, 2008 3:18:04 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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Yes, they unlock in phases, first some (not many) become available after the "Fall of Czech" then the rest soon after war breaks out. This is to simulate the Aussie game system where CW units are not available for use in the "all or nothing in France" system. New units are not locked if and when produced. Basicly this reduced the number of CW troops available to the allies before war start by half, if you include Canada.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
cueball
Posted: Saturday, July 12, 2008 9:20:22 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalInspiring Poster '08 AwardAuthor of 10000th Post

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If you are playing the SP, let me know what you think. I have done some work on making in SP playable, but it definitely needs work.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Anders
Posted: Monday, July 14, 2008 2:56:10 AM
 Generalfeldmarschall

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support MedalBanned in ActionAuthor of 7000th post

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Posts: 13,057
Location: Auf das der Adler wieder fliegt
One question/sugestion: have you modded torpedoes? They would be a bit more useful if they gave an increase to surface attack.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
GeneralSherman
Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 2:55:14 AM
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Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 71
Location: Virginia, USA
Having taken part in a EIR game and done several test games, I have some comments on things that bother me with the mod. Note that most of these issues came from MEM, and my comments would be equally applicable. Overall, I love the mod. It is a better game than vanilla HOI2 Doomsday Armageddon.

1) I like the idea behind the LST/troop transport split, but think the implementation theory has a flaw. Quite simply, the reality is that amphibious operations could be run from any kind of transport. True, not well, but it would be possible. In the mod, it is not possible. I think of the German planning for Sealion where they were bringing in Rhine River barges. A better solution would be to allow all TT to do amphib invasions, but the LST model to have a much better rating. The range restriction on the other transports is also a pain in the butt to deal with and excessively cripples that ship type.

2) Airborne divisions are too weak. I've read the MEM explanation and I don't buy it. Airborne divisions were full-sized divisions with a lot of power. All the nations that had them used them as regular troops. The 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions were the ETO strategic reserve for a while, not because they were too weak to use, but because they were tough enough to be thrown into the breach and make a difference. The German 1st Parachute Division was one of the most feared German divisions on the Western Front. In this mod (and MEM), airborne divisions are worse than militia. I understand the issue this is meant to address: that most airborne operations ended in disaster. But that was a flaw in the operations, not the divisions. Simulate it not by making airborne divisions weak, but by making the airborne assault mission weak. Let the divisions be the mean mo-fos they were. Let the players build these tough, powerful elite units then either foolishly throw them behind enemy lines to be shredded into ribbons, or use them wisely as difference makers. Bastogne.... "Nuts!"

3) Air transports are too expensive. Nobody with the possible exception of the USA can afford to tie up 30 IC for half a year for what is essentially a luxury item. As a result, one of the most dramatic parts of World War II is absent from MP games, especially in this mod. I did a little research once before on this and found no justification for them being so much more expensive than other air units. For the Germans, Lufthansa became their air transport fleet. Perhaps the cost should be lowered a bit, and at some point give the Germans, British and Russians an air transport unit or two if they've researched the tech. Given the air transport, many players will devote the IC to a couple airborne divisions, even if they cost more and take longer to build than other infantry divs.

4) Upgrading is prohibitively expensive. In my Germany test games, the cost makes upgrading unfeasible. It gets worse the farther into the game you go. I understand the intent, but the problem is the sliders, not the upgrade cost/time. Paradox screwed the game when they imported the sliders. I don't know how to fix the ridiculously cheap upgrading for the Allies except by making them not so much free market and locking their sliders. Can you do that? I would recommend putting it back to the way it was.

5) Make Italy much more mountainous and muddy. I recommend reading The Day of Battle by Rick Atkinson for a wonderful history of the Italian Campaign. To read that book than look at the HOI2 map and see Naples as clear terrain is very annoying. Monte Cassino is in the Naples region!! It took the Allies something like 8 months to conquer that part of the map.

I'll probably have more at some point. I think it's a really good mod and look forward to playing it a lot more.
Anders
Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:01:31 AM
 Generalfeldmarschall

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support MedalBanned in ActionAuthor of 7000th post

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Cassino is it's own province, and it's a mountain.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
GeneralSherman
Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:20:05 AM
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Joined: 7/7/2008
Posts: 71
Location: Virginia, USA
Anders wrote:
Cassino is it's own province, and it's a mountain.


Right you are, but Italy in the game still bears little relation to what fighting in the country was really like.
Anders
Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 3:23:55 AM
 Generalfeldmarschall

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal2012 Good Cause Support MedalBanned in ActionAuthor of 7000th post

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Posts: 13,057
Location: Auf das der Adler wieder fliegt
Actually, it does, just as much as everyting else in the game. Southern Italy is flat or hilly, while the northern bits, where the fighting was harder, is a lot more mountainous.
I'd want China less mountainous before changin Italy. (Though I never really looked that hard on the Chinese terrain..)

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
Willow
Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 5:15:06 AM
 Oberfeldwebel

One Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership Medal

Joined: 6/14/2008
Posts: 74
Location: Norway
GeneralSherman wrote:
Having taken part in a EIR game and done several test games, I have some comments on things that bother me with the mod. Note that most of these issues came from MEM, and my comments would be equally applicable. Overall, I love the mod. It is a better game than vanilla HOI2 Doomsday Armageddon.

1) I like the idea behind the LST/troop transport split, but think the implementation theory has a flaw. Quite simply, the reality is that amphibious operations could be run from any kind of transport. True, not well, but it would be possible. In the mod, it is not possible. I think of the German planning for Sealion where they were bringing in Rhine River barges. A better solution would be to allow all TT to do amphib invasions, but the LST model to have a much better rating. The range restriction on the other transports is also a pain in the butt to deal with and excessively cripples that ship type.

2) Airborne divisions are too weak. I've read the MEM explanation and I don't buy it. Airborne divisions were full-sized divisions with a lot of power. All the nations that had them used them as regular troops. The 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions were the ETO strategic reserve for a while, not because they were too weak to use, but because they were tough enough to be thrown into the breach and make a difference. The German 1st Parachute Division was one of the most feared German divisions on the Western Front. In this mod (and MEM), airborne divisions are worse than militia. I understand the issue this is meant to address: that most airborne operations ended in disaster. But that was a flaw in the operations, not the divisions. Simulate it not by making airborne divisions weak, but by making the airborne assault mission weak. Let the divisions be the mean mo-fos they were. Let the players build these tough, powerful elite units then either foolishly throw them behind enemy lines to be shredded into ribbons, or use them wisely as difference makers. Bastogne.... "Nuts!"

3) Air transports are too expensive. Nobody with the possible exception of the USA can afford to tie up 30 IC for half a year for what is essentially a luxury item. As a result, one of the most dramatic parts of World War II is absent from MP games, especially in this mod. I did a little research once before on this and found no justification for them being so much more expensive than other air units. For the Germans, Lufthansa became their air transport fleet. Perhaps the cost should be lowered a bit, and at some point give the Germans, British and Russians an air transport unit or two if they've researched the tech. Given the air transport, many players will devote the IC to a couple airborne divisions, even if they cost more and take longer to build than other infantry divs.

4) Upgrading is prohibitively expensive. In my Germany test games, the cost makes upgrading unfeasible. It gets worse the farther into the game you go. I understand the intent, but the problem is the sliders, not the upgrade cost/time. Paradox screwed the game when they imported the sliders. I don't know how to fix the ridiculously cheap upgrading for the Allies except by making them not so much free market and locking their sliders. Can you do that? I would recommend putting it back to the way it was.

5) Make Italy much more mountainous and muddy. I recommend reading The Day of Battle by Rick Atkinson for a wonderful history of the Italian Campaign. To read that book than look at the HOI2 map and see Naples as clear terrain is very annoying. Monte Cassino is in the Naples region!! It took the Allies something like 8 months to conquer that part of the map.

I'll probably have more at some point. I think it's a really good mod and look forward to playing it a lot more.


Very good points all ! :-) It is not often I agree this much with anyone.

- Willow

msn : gkopheim@hotmail.com

I have not played HOI much the last years but I'm eager to get back into it. Sadly I have an erratic time schedule so I may not be able to play one set time each week.
Have many versions set up. 8 plane, EiR and so on. Also various patch versions.
cueball
Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 5:42:41 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

Forum Supporter Medal 1st ClassOne Year Membership MedalTwo Year Membership MedalInspiring Poster '08 AwardAuthor of 10000th Post

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GeneralSherman wrote:
Having taken part in a EIR game and done several test games, I have some comments on things that bother me with the mod. Note that most of these issues came from MEM, and my comments would be equally applicable. Overall, I love the mod. It is a better game than vanilla HOI2 Doomsday Armageddon.


Thanks for the compliment and the comments. I guess the first thing I should say is that philosophically speaking, I don't believe that this game can be made specifically historically accurate, so the specific historicity of any issue is always second in my mind to replicating general strategic and operational realities.

Many people make an issue, for example, of the comparative differences between the tank divisions of each of the major nations, both in terms of composition and vehicle quality. A favourite of course, is the general superiority of German armour in tank v tank battles with American tanks on the French and German battlefields of 1944/45. People who bring up these issues are doubtless correct, but in my opinion, a strategy level war-game such as this is basically founded in the general issue of overall cost of production of armies, not the quality of the machines produced. One points to the fact that while Germany certainly produced far superior AFV's than the US their specialized machines were harder to produce, and so the balance of cost/benefit of production equaled out overall.

The Germans were fielding superior armour, but less of it on a division by division basis than the US army. The overall strategic picture in terms of producing a division is one of relative parity, despite the clear superiority of German equipment on a vehicle by vehicle basis... or at least we can imagine it this way. The Germans were forced therefore to concentrate all of their armour in one place to execute the Ardennes attack of 1944, while every American infantry man could depend on some kind of local armour support at each and every point of the line. A lightly armed infantry soldier facing a Sherman tank might as well be facing a King Tiger, regardless of the fact that in a tank v. tank battle the Tiger would clearly be more likely to overcome the American tank, even two or three of them.

I believe that there is no way we are going to be able to square all the corners of these equations, and so it is a matter of which historical inaccuracies you choose to accept and which ones are most important to game play on the strategic level.

Quote:

1) I like the idea behind the LST/troop transport split, but think the implementation theory has a flaw. Quite simply, the reality is that amphibious operations could be run from any kind of transport. True, not well, but it would be possible. In the mod, it is not possible. I think of the German planning for Sealion where they were bringing in Rhine River barges. A better solution would be to allow all TT to do amphib invasions, but the LST model to have a much better rating. The range restriction on the other transports is also a pain in the butt to deal with and excessively cripples that ship type.


Re: Ergonomics. There is a trick to using the TT's efficiently when loaded. No you can not simply select the unit and then click on the province you want it to move too. But you can use the command box to select the rebase command, and then click on the province you want the TT's to move too. You do not actually have to select the base from the list of names provided, just click on the map.

The issue is not landings per se. But opposed landings.

Quote:
2) Airborne divisions are too weak. I've read the MEM explanation and I don't buy it. Airborne divisions were full-sized divisions with a lot of power. All the nations that had them used them as regular troops. The 82nd and 101st Airborne Divisions were the ETO strategic reserve for a while, not because they were too weak to use, but because they were tough enough to be thrown into the breach and make a difference. The German 1st Parachute Division was one of the most feared German divisions on the Western Front. In this mod (and MEM), airborne divisions are worse than militia. I understand the issue this is meant to address: that most airborne operations ended in disaster. But that was a flaw in the operations, not the divisions. Simulate it not by making airborne divisions weak, but by making the airborne assault mission weak. Let the divisions be the mean mo-fos they were. Let the players build these tough, powerful elite units then either foolishly throw them behind enemy lines to be shredded into ribbons, or use them wisely as difference makers. Bastogne.... "Nuts!"


McAuliffe’s entry into the history books with that line is certainly well deserved. And while I agree the 82nd and 101st were definitely the best that the US army had to field as infantry the fact is that during WW2 there is only one single example of massed air assault winning a clear victory on the battlefield. The German invasion of Crete also came very close to failure. It was so nearly disastrous that the German 1st Parachute division became a ground unit, ever after on Hitler’s orders.

And this is an issue where game play and operational historicity outweigh the considerations of specific historical accuracy, in my view. Yes, when considered as ground units airborne units were definitely "elite" but their effectiveness as ground units has nothing to do with how effective they should be when air dropped. Being dropped is thier single purpose in terms of the combat system of the game. Unlike the 101st and the 82nd players do not use these units in the role that they were used during the Battle of the Bulge. So this is something where a choice has to be made, and given that airborne units are generally used by players specifically for the purposes of dropping them, for the most part. Therefore their battlefield ratings should reflect how they are used in the game.

There is another thing about this that should be mentioned. More importantly, there is a flaw in the game system that can be exploited with air drops and this is the main reason they were nerfed. You see, when an airborne unit is dropped directly onto a front line enemy unit that is under attack, no defending reinforcements sent to the province can arrive in the province until the attacking airborne unit is defeated. If the airborne units are very strong there can be a huge and unrealistic delay necessary reinforcements. This critically upsets the defense chances. Yes, it is reasonable to suggest that there will be some delay of reinforcement when an airborne unit is landed directly onto a province, but this has to be moderated, otherwise repeated use of airborne units can effectively prevent a defender from reinforcing front line provinces in a series.

So, while making airborne assault mission weak would solve one problem, but not the exploit. The airborne units would be attacking from the air, but defending on the ground, against defending divisions trying to enter the province to reinforce.

These two things combined, the exploit, and the fact that airborne units are basically only used for air operations in real game play outweigh the historical fact that on those occasion where they operated as ground units (which they never do in game play) were superior to regular infantry. I don't think we can square all the corners of this equation, so that airborne units are realistic in all aspects.

Quote:
3) Air transports are too expensive. Nobody with the possible exception of the USA can afford to tie up 30 IC for half a year for what is essentially a luxury item. As a result, one of the most dramatic parts of World War II is absent from MP games, especially in this mod. I did a little research once before on this and found no justification for them being so much more expensive than other air units. For the Germans, Lufthansa became their air transport fleet. Perhaps the cost should be lowered a bit, and at some point give the Germans, British and Russians an air transport unit or two if they've researched the tech. Given the air transport, many players will devote the IC to a couple airborne divisions, even if they cost more and take longer to build than other infantry divs.


I know what you are saying, and I look at that expense and I go "wow." It is pretty prohibitive. On the other hands it is an extremely useful unit, and used well airborne units and their transports often are critical in destroying units far in excess of what is spent on them. They certainly can change the course of a whole campaign suddenly and create key game winning operational opportunities. One thing I do is stick them at the end of my build que, so that I am not spending 30 IC for half a year, but 10 IC over a year and a half. Its an illusion but it eases the pain. You only need one or two of each, so gearing is not critical, and letting them soak up extra IC at the end of the production queue means they don't interfere with long serials of other units where gearing is more important. That said overall cost might be reduced, and more commentary would welcome.

Quote:
4) Upgrading is prohibitively expensive. In my Germany test games, the cost makes upgrading unfeasible. It gets worse the farther into the game you go. I understand the intent, but the problem is the sliders, not the upgrade cost/time. Paradox screwed the game when they imported the sliders. I don't know how to fix the ridiculously cheap upgrading for the Allies except by making them not so much free market and locking their sliders. Can you do that? I would recommend putting it back to the way it was.


I have not done a total IC days comparison on this issue, but there is something that you may not have considered. Upgrading from the first tier to the second tier costs half as much if you have researched the third tier tech. This means that if you keep your upgrades a generation behind, you can zoom through several generations of units with very minimal cost. When mixed with the Full Free Market/Standing Army bonus, this means that UK (for example) can simply produce level one tanks in serials, and use the gearing bonus to produce super 1/2 price units en masse. Hopefully the upgrade cost, and the immediate necessity of the war itself will encourage more realistic, and less exploitative production.

This trick can still be applied by any army, more or less, but extremely advantages Allies. My hope is that the immediate needs of war production will change the patern of Allied production, especially UK, so that they will actually be forced to pursue a more realistic build order, and also build new, as opposed to simply relying on gearing to build old and then upgrade when units finally appear.

With the upgrade costs set up as they are in EIR what I do with the centrally planned economies is produce the latest units possible in new production, but keep my existing army a generation behind. I simply don't upgrade them to the final tier until I have researched a tech a generation further ahead. This results in a considerable savings in IC, while at the same time allowing the Germans and Russians to build substantial armies. I think this strategy ends up reflecting the general strategic reality that divisions were varyingly equipped. Not all divisions in the German army were upgraded equally at the same time. In fact all armies were a hodge-podge of variously equipped divisions often fielding very outdates equipment. The result of using the method I outlined here is a composition of a Red Army that has both 1939, and 1941 infantry divisions at the front in 1941, and I think this is actually more realistic that having a uniform Soviet army featuring only 1941 divisions across the whole front.

Forcing a situation where it is most efficient for armies to not be uniform but a layered variety of divisions of differing qualities is intentional.

That said I would be delighted if someone (perhaps yourself Wink ) would do a comprehensive IC days analysis comparing the different upgrade abilities of the nations, as they compare to vanilla. Such an analysis would be very useful, and it is very possible that the specifics of the upgrade system could be fine tuned.

Quote:
5) Make Italy much more mountainous and muddy. I recommend reading The Day of Battle by Rick Atkinson for a wonderful history of the Italian Campaign. To read that book than look at the HOI2 map and see Naples as clear terrain is very annoying. Monte Cassino is in the Naples region!! It took the Allies something like 8 months to conquer that part of the map.


I have always thought what Winston Churchill called the "soft underbelly of Europe" was a little too soft in this game. Unfortunately we only have two types of terrain available, so while Italy being mountainous through and through would be too much, having it hilly is to little. A possible solution might be to actually change the combat effect of hills, so they are easier to defend overall, but this would have some wide ranging impacts game wide that would have to be looked at.

Thanks a lot and keep it coming. I definetly think a review of 3,4, and 5 might be a good thing. Tweaking is always possible. With 2, I think we would have to wait a while and see how the unit is working as it is, before changing anything. It will still functions to a lot of good work as it is, but that exploit I have described is pretty vicious.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Ederon
Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 4:05:47 PM
 Field Major


Joined: 2/28/2007
Posts: 5,949
Location: Heart of Europe
Good reading guys. As cueball says, GeneralSherman put some very good comments together.

I'll just add to the matter of upgrades. I like the strategy presented by cueball which is to upgrade only 2 generation old units to previous generation and save IC/time this way. Current generation units are built in regular production, then restricted to upgrade until they are 2 generations old and so on. This diversifies forces composition as it was in reality. And it's really nice addition to the atmosphere of the game. We played MEM test game just for maybe 2 years, but it already kicked in and I enjoyed it a lot.
cueball
Posted: Friday, August 29, 2008 10:48:46 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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GRaphics.rar
EIR AIR MOD.rar

Just putting this here for safe keeping.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
GeneralSherman
Posted: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:38:17 AM
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Cue, just to let you know, I am happy to do the work on any changes I recommend if you decide you like them. Like I would be prepared to write the techs and events for the manpower/mobilization system.

My next area of suggestion is to allow for differentiation in unit stats, both by tech research and for country-to-country. Like, we know that the Soviets built great tanks, the Germans built some powerful-but-unreliable tanks, the Western Allies had weak tanks, the Americans had great artillery, the Western Allies were tough in the air. I think we can reflect that in the game through the use of unresearchable techs that boost or degrade unit stats directly. For example, Soviet Armor Excellence could give Soviet armored divisions +2 to hard attack and +5% to hardness. American/British Armor Weakness could give American and British armored divisions a -15% to hardness, a -2 to hard attack, and a +10% to org and morale. This would offset the weakening of the divisions to reflect that while these tanks sucked and took heavy casualties, the divisions themselves were powerful due to large numbers of tanks, powerful integrated artillery, and quick replacement.

The other angle is that I think the division techs should be affected by the armor/artillery techs and have them as prerequisites. For example, when a new anti-tank gun was developed, it wasn't just put into brigades that were attached to divisions. It was integrated into the divisions themselves. Same with artillery guns. When the Germans developed the 88 as an at gun, it improved the hard attack of all German divisions. The game doesn't do that. So I propose having the artillery techs add bonuses to unit ha/sa as appropriate. Also, they should be prereqs a generation ahead. For example, basic infantry division would have early field artillery and early anti-tank artillery as prerequisites. Advanced Infantry also have the basic self-propelled artilleries as prerequisites. This will force a more realistic spread out research while giving a reward.

I'd also love to see motorized and mechanized infantry as unit types that regular infantry is upgradable to, although I don't know if that is possible.
GeneralSherman
Posted: Friday, September 05, 2008 10:50:06 AM
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Re: Para "Exploit"

Why is that an "exploit"? It sounds like a reality-supported WAD game feature. Paras were dropped to capture critical terrain features like bridges and forts. We also know from Arnhem and Bastogne that these units could hold out for long times against vastly superior forces. Doesn't sound like an exploit to me. You make an assault, you drop paras behind the enemy lines to hold some key crossroads, the reinforcements have to fight through the airborne troops before they can join the main battle. In EIR/MEM, these are wimpy-ass units that give up after a couple of hours.

Given how long battles take in these mods, and how easy it is for massive reinforcements to completely change the odds of a battle through support defense, strong airborne units appear to give an attacker a way of using strategy to maintain favorable odds in a battle.

I renew my objection to the emasculation of the airborne division. I mean, the airborne operations conducted showed that even dropped, these units could overcome regular heavy divisions and hold out for days at a time against panzer divisions. In these mods, militia units can defeat them. They are only useful dropped into completely unoccupied territories. Not realistic.
cueball
Posted: Friday, September 05, 2008 11:31:38 AM
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I just don't agree. While airborne units certainly had an elite charachter, they also had serious deficiencies. They were not able to bring into an air dropped battle the kinds of large support equipment, such as large anti-tank equipment or artillery or AFV's that gave other units strength. This lack was critical during the disaster at Arnhem, when the 9th Panzer division suddenly appeared. So whatever one can say about their superior morale and training, the were really light troops who depended on their skill as fighters and their commitment to do what they did. I don't think this makes them stronger than a regular infantry division. They certainly sowed confusion, but were rarely able to hold terrain.

Again, I can't think of one completely successful mass airdrop in the entire war, and certainly not one that involved directly dropping onto enemy troops, other than Operation Mercury, and that was so touch and go, airdropped missions were banned in future actions. And Crete is a limited zone of operations where no enemy reinforcement were able to come to the aid of the island garrison. Even then the Germans had to fly in reinforcement by air, and land light tanks via a port in order to secure victory.

On the ground of course there is the infamous battle of Bastogne, where the 101st airborne managed to hold out for a significant amount of time against superior odds. But again they were not airdropped, but rode into position on trucks. This fact has everything to do with their ability to set up properly co-ordinated defences, something they were generally unable to do when dropped from the air, due to the nature of air dropped mission. Therefore it seems to me there main purpose is light interdiction, not resilient defence of a position when dropped from the air.

So it makes no sense to apply Bastogne like defence values to a unit that is dropped from the air, and so prevent reinforcements from entering the province in question. You are saying that one division of airborne troops dropped on to attack a province containing 10 division, should be able to defend the same province effectively for a long period of time against another 20 divitions coming to the aid of the defending units? It just does not make sense to me, after all, Bastogne quite likely would have turned out differently had the Germans actually applied all the forces they could to wiping out the pocket, doubtless it would have fallen. But really they just bypassed in on the expectation that the beleaguered troops would surrender.

And remember, that is on defence of a position in which the troops enter the field in an organized manner. If they were dropped more than half of them likely never would have seen the town of Bastogne, let alone been in a position to defend it.

Now, if players routinely used airborne divisions to set up and defend the line that would be another thing. Then the discussion would be along the lines of those players asking for up market SS division, just by the fact that they are SS, even though there are numerous examples of SS troops showing sub-par performance in battle, such as the late war German defence of Budapest. Again the practice is to use the airborne troops as a dropped unit, not as a ground unit, and thus the values applied should reflect their defensive values when used for an airborne attack, not in a conventional defence.

It is not that I disagree with the principle that some kind of interdiction of enemy forces entering the province, it is just that I don't think it should be a sustained and competent defence such as the one we saw at bastogne, but more along the lines of a temporary delay of the kind we saw at Arnhem.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
GeneralSherman
Posted: Friday, September 05, 2008 11:38:17 AM
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cueball wrote:
It is not that I disagree with the principle that some kind of interdiction of enemy forces entering the province, it is just that I don't think it should be a sustained and competent defence such as the one we saw at bastogne, but more along the lines of a temporary delay of the kind we saw at Arnhem.


I agree with this statement, but the units as they are don't even do that. Arnhem, the paras held out for days. In EIR, an airborne division -- not even fair to call it a division -- won't even hold out for hours against any kind of decent enemy force.
cueball
Posted: Saturday, September 06, 2008 12:29:55 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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Well we could test that. I just made it up basically.

I am probably going to let the present mod stand as it is for the games already ongoing and the already planned new ones, but I will be changing a few things for the next generation, and see how that is working.

Also, I think we will be instituting the rule that makes players build air bases and naval bases in the province where they are to be deployed. In order to enforce this rule, TC load for bases sitting in queue will be set to 10,000 as opposed to 100. However, the cost for airbases will be increased to 6 but there build time reduced to 30.

Air defence for level 1 NAV's will likely be decreased.

Set up the Doomsday.txt file so that the correct names show for late model interceptors.

Set up the "models" graphics so the type of aircraft listed is consistent with picture shown for all countries which usually have players.

Set up AI's to take into account new tech formulation.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
cueball
Posted: Saturday, September 06, 2008 7:48:42 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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Sherman, I started a new thread so we could discuss your ideas about Upgrades,Production and Mobilization.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
GeneralSherman
Posted: Monday, September 08, 2008 3:17:56 AM
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Joined: 7/7/2008
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Location: Virginia, USA
Cue, is it possible to change the build time/cost of an airbase based on the level? Make level 1 faster than the others? Just curious.

Also, what about some changes in Vichy? I think Germany should get military access, at least through Syria. Vichy is far more neutral in this game than in the war. I know a lot of it is because of player abuses of the earlier system, but we should consider this. I am thinking of the Iraq incident, where the British actually invaded and conquered Syria to stop the Germans sending support to Iraq. The Allies were at quasi-war with Vichy. Vichy was a player in the war, but in the game, they really aren't.
cueball
Posted: Monday, September 08, 2008 4:04:43 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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Military access is a very tricky thing. It can crash the game in certain circumstance, which is why the player option for aksing for it was removed. I believe there still is a circumstance where Italy and Germany get Military Access to Syria, and in fact there are problems with this whole event train with the Iraq coup and German and Italian access, which will crash the game in some circumstance still. They also made up all these interesting events around Madagascar, and such for Doomsday, and immediatly disconnected them because they have military access issues -- game crashes when a power is at war with a country it has military access too.

For example, in the Siam surrender event it gives military access to all the Allied countries. But in the circumstance where South Africa left the Allies after Danzig, then declared war on the Axis, then joined the Allies again, the peace agreement with Siam only eliminates one war with South Africa, the war it is in with the Allies against Siam, not the war it declared independenly, which remains and causes a conflict that crashes the game.

As for airbases. No. But they do gear. I think 30 days is reasonable. A level 10, full functioning airbase for your air armada takes 10 months instead of 2 and 1/2 years. You can throw up some huts and clear off a strip of land, put up an antenna in less than a month. Its good.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
GeneralSherman
Posted: Monday, September 08, 2008 10:21:54 AM
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Cue, why did you take the Basic Air Transport tech away from Germany? You know they had the Ju-52 before 1936. They started experimenting with paratroopers in 1933. They officially created a small airborne unit in January 1936 using Ju-52 planes.

Also, with landing craft separated from troop transports, why not give Germany a few transports? They have three divisions trapped in East Prussia. How did they get there? Certainly Germany had some troop transport capability?

If Italy gets an air transport unit at start, Germany and Russia should also. Russia should probably have the early paratrooper tech and Germany should have at least a blueprint. These would more accurately simulate the situation on jan 1 36 for these countries wrt this issue.
cueball
Posted: Monday, September 08, 2008 6:36:05 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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GeneralSherman wrote:
Cue, why did you take the Basic Air Transport tech away from Germany? You know they had the Ju-52 before 1936. They started experimenting with paratroopers in 1933. They officially created a small airborne unit in January 1936 using Ju-52 planes.


Who were trained in Russia. They get this tech BP through the military and industrial co-operation event system from Russia, if they agree to continue with that.

That event system is pretty simple. If Russia refuses Military and Industrial co-operation with Germany, then Russia gets a further -5% IC modification until war. The pact is renewed each year, and both countries get an tech if they accept the deal. The deal can be cancelled by Germany at anytime that no trade exists between Russia and Germany. So if Russia cancels the original resource trade with Germany, Germany gets events which allow Germany to cancel the deal and then Russia will get a -5% IC modification.

The Russians mostly get BP's for rocket technology (the Germans some airborne and some rocket), since, as you probably know, the Nebewefer and the Katyusha both evolved from the same weapons program -- a co-operative venture of the Soviet and German armies.

Germany gets the Airborne Infantry tech in 1936, and the Air Transport tech in 37, though perhaps I should reverse that order.

This adds more reason for players to continue the trade between Russia and Germany up until the war.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
GeneralSherman
Posted: Monday, September 08, 2008 7:06:26 PM
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cueball wrote:
Who were trained in Russia.


Yes, before 1936. And the Ju-52 was in service prior to 1936. HOI 1 used to give Germany an air transport unit, which was more accurate. Not sure why they took it away. They also took away the three troop transport units Germany used to start with, again for unknown reasons.
cueball
Posted: Monday, September 08, 2008 7:17:16 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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Right, and as you said, it was a small training group -- I think a BP is sufficient to symbolize this. Nonethless, the game will never be 100% historically accurate, however we can strive to make the game follow the general strategic dynamics as an abstraction, and the Military and Industrial co-operation events do this well, punishing both German and Russia (the pariah states of Europe) if they do not co-operate with each other. -5% IC is a lot of punishment for the Soviet union to take, amounting to a 20 IC drop, if they decide to play games with starting trades.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
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