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sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:26:07 PM
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In cueballs latest version of his mod, he gave gamelin a skill lvl of 2 instead of 1. This started a discussion over the virtue of gamelin. Was he as incompetent as he appeared? IMO, he was not prepared for WWII. He was a leading proponent for the maginot line. He was a strong believer in "static defense". His plan for WWII involved "drole de guerre". In other words he planned on a long "phoney war". He hoped for a replay of WWI, only this time on belgian soil. He hurried his advance to the preplanned defenses in belgium at the dyle river, the aptly named "dyle plan". He believed that belgian anti-tank defenses there would help hold off the wermacht. (I must mention that he was initially against even this plan, he originally wanted to follow the "escaut" plan. That was essentially a plan to fortify frances entire border, what we call the "turtle up plan;-) ). This plan left a huge whole in the allied defenses, which the OKW took advantage of. As the quote below shows, he was just not suited for a supreme leadership position when his country needed him most.

The Republic in Danger wrote:

On 9 September Gamelin reckoned that Poland was "finished" (Alexander, p. 317); so much for Gamelin's grand idea of Poland holding out for France. The French high command had to face the prospect of an immediate German turn to the west, but satisfied itself with the dro@le de guerre. Gamelin clung to his defensive strategy; everything had to be just right before he would move, though war rarely allows for everything to be just right. Gamelin said the French army could not take the offensive before 1941 or 1942! Alexander holds that the French army learned correctly the lessons of the Polish campaign, that is, the German use of concentrated, coordinated armour and air power, but they did not translate the lessons into appropriate countermeasures. A little like Post, Alexander attributes this failure to the hidebound, "byzantine" French bureaucracy, but also to a cannot-happen-here complacency based on the "widespread belief" that the Poles had bungled (pp. 345-48, 356). Alexander also focuses on poor French morale. Il faut en finir, was the best French soldiers could do. There was no "zest for...perilous missions," and this "gave Gamelin cause for concern" (p. 362). But as in all other matters, such as insufficiencies in tanks and antitank guns or in armaments production generally, Gamelin's concern did not make right the situation. Not that he could have changed the outcome, but unlike Churchill, he did not rise above the commonplace. After Gamelin's sacking in May 1940, he went back to his apartment on the avenue Foch to wait to be called--scarcely an inspiration to French patriots who wanted to continue the fight.

As a result, he was one of "debacle's generals," though, curiously, we do not learn of Gamelin's role, or lack of it, in May 1940. Alexander pleads for a "more charitable" interpretation of Gamelin's years of command. He had only limited authority, and he could not, or did not try, to impose his will on the government. Gamelin "knew that the image of France was in trouble abroad" (p. 382). Great Britain, the United States, Belgium, and the Little Entente had lost confidence in France. And what about the U.S.S.R.? Significantly, Alexander does not mention it, though the Red Army was key to any alliance against Nazi Germany. Parker says that Great Britain had alternatives; so did France. Gamelin was as responsible as any French general for spurning a Soviet alliance. Alexander notes that at times Gamelin thought of resignation, but "never carried it through," disliking the inevitable "messy public recriminations" (p. 382). "Never carried it through" might have been Gamelin's posthumous devise.


I say this shows a man incapable of reacting to a changing world. Stuck in the past. Unable to release the tactics of WWI, and accept a new "combat reality". I would have given him perhaps skill level 4(many believed he was an intelligent man) but with no matches to anything.

Thoughts?

EDIT: Do we need a history forum?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
von_Bock
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:47:06 PM
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Lets not forget that many nations made the same mistake as Gamelin and even some German generals were in the mindset of WWI.

Originally the OKH planned to launch the Schlieffen plan once more which is what Gamelin was hoping for. Poland deployed its military to defend everything, and Russia too made the mistake of concentrating to large of a force at the forward position. Its human nature to attempt to apply existing concepts to what they think is modern, It was only a handfull of leaders who forsaw what the war would become.

"The pen is mightier then the sword and I just got defeated by both" Ryan W.
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:48:44 PM
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von_Bock wrote:
Lets not forget that many nations made the same mistake as Gamelin and even some German generals were in the mindset of WWI.

Originally the OKH planned to launch the Schlieffen plan once more which is what Gamelin was hoping for. Poland deployed its military to defend everything, and Russia too made the mistake of concentrating to large of a force at the forward position. Its human nature to attempt to apply existing concepts to what they think is modern, It was only a handfull of leaders who forsaw what the war would become.
No real foresight was needed after the fall of poland. It was shown that static defense was useless against blitzkrieg. Gamelin could not adapt.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
von_Bock
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:49:42 PM
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"You are betrayed. You fought for something you did not get. And the glories of the Army and Navy of the United States are gone like a dream in the night. And there ensues upon us a nightmare of dread. And there will come some time, in the vengeful providence of God, another War, in which not a few hundred thousand will have to die, but many millions." - US President Woodrow Wilson in 1918

that is true foresight


dont forget, when we fail, we like to make excuses to why we failed....

go look in every forum where a game reaches a conclusion

there is always something at fault with the failure of strategy, how often does somone say, i was wrong:-?

"The pen is mightier then the sword and I just got defeated by both" Ryan W.
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 2:58:31 PM
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Actually gamelin admitted he was wrong. He took full reponsibility for the defeat. He deserves respect for that.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
von_Bock
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:42:18 PM
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sonofliberty wrote:
Actually gamelin admitted he was wrong. He took full reponsibility for the defeat. He deserves respect for that.
its easy to admit your wrong when you have hindsight. but you dont have hindsight available at the time.

"Any military commander who is honest with himself, or with those he is speaking to, will admit that he has made mistakes in the application of military power. He's killed people unnecessarily—his own troops or other troops, through mistakes, through errors of judgment. A hundred, or a thousand, or ten thousand, maybe even a hundred thousand...and the conventional wisdom is dont make the same mistake twice, learn from your mistakes, and we all do. maybe we make the same mistake 3 times, but hopefully not 4 or 5" Robert McNamara

"The pen is mightier then the sword and I just got defeated by both" Ryan W.
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:52:55 PM
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Those are facts that many of us forget. However, britain and france both were guilty of appeasement long before then. Dont forget either that poland took thier share of cze at munich, and deserved some of what they got.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
cueball
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:59:34 PM
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Part One:

But first of all lets make note of a few things here. The primary case of study is the failure of the French Army in the Ardennes, and the subsequent partial encirclement of the BEF and elements of the French army in Belgium. The primary point is one of doctrine, not "mistakes."

I submit that the French army actually applied "mobile defence" as its operational system, hence the French First Cavalry Corps (its elite mobile Corps) was ordered to confront the Germa army crossing into Belgium, not to stop the advance, but only to delay the advance, the subsequent battle of Harnut was up until the Battle of Kursk surely the largest tank engagement of the war. Note this comment, in the Axis Hisotry Fact Book:

Quote:
During 2 days the 3e DLM (and the 2e DLM) managed to stop 2 Panzerdivisionen and to inflict them heavy losses in Hannut. It is an incontestable tactical/operational success. The single mission of general Prioux was to resist enough to delay the German advance during 2 days. This mission was completely fulfilled. Of course, today we know that the German attack in Belgium had the aim to attract the allied troops in a trap but the XVI. Panzerkorps was not simulating its combats and the losses are real. According to Gunsburg, Hoepner had actually the order to pierce the French line in Gembloux, in which he failed. The 2 Panzerdivision supported by 2 infantry divisions were again blocked in Gembloux, by 2 French infantry divisions this time. On the overall strategic level of course the allies failed in May 1940 but Hannut and Gembloux are French undisputable tactical successes over the German army. Despite a numeric superiority and heavy aerial support, the advantage of the radio sets in their faster tanks etc. the Germans failed in face of the French cavalry corps and the 1st army which were devoid of aerial support.


Moreso, the objective here is not to stop the German advance, but only to delay it, so it is not only a tactical success, but a complete success, since it achieved all of its primary objectives, substantially degrading the German offensive units, putting them effectively out of the immediate action, delaying them, and retreating in good order. Of course this success is later undermined because of the later endirclement of the First French Cavalry Corps, along with the BEF, but this failure is elswhere, but to the point of doctrine we see that Gamelin is applying agressive "mobile defence" not static defence.

It may be argued that it was a "mistake" for the French to so rapidly apply their best mobile divisions in this manner at this point in time, but it certainly does not indicate that Gamelin's thinking was entirely foccused on static defence. If anything making this "mistake" may indicate that he was too agressively applying a system of mobile tank warfare, as it was theoretically proposed.

I'll write more about the actual dénouement, in my next post.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:17:56 PM
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So tactically he succeeded. However strategically, which should have been his PRIMARY concern, he was an abject failure.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
von_Bock
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:33:18 PM
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Geo, we are talking about failures of strategy as a whole, not about minor victories that occured during the strategic defeats

"The pen is mightier then the sword and I just got defeated by both" Ryan W.
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:44:10 PM
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Geofactor wrote:
http://www.acesofww2.com/poland/Poland.htm polish aces page....interesting
Poland is a different topic entirely.


"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
von_Bock
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:44:44 PM
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sonofliberty wrote:
Poland is a different topic entirely.
indeed

"The pen is mightier then the sword and I just got defeated by both" Ryan W.
cueball
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:46:07 PM
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We should really have a Polish thread because I think it deserves one and Geofactor's points are well made.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:46:40 PM
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I am asking Daniel to set us up a history forum. I think geo opened a can of worms.:-d

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
von_Bock
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:47:36 PM
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of all the lessons of WW2, i find it funny how people still like to generalize individual accomplishments of specific ethnicities or nationalities when really one of the greater stories of mankind happend, many different people from different religions, different political and national beliefs all fought together to defeat a enemy who was trying to eliminate all of them.

everyone fought, everyone died, the Polish are just like the French, Russians, British, Greek, Canadians, Americans, Dutch, Norweigens, Belgians, Yugoslavs. they all fought and died for the same thing

"The pen is mightier then the sword and I just got defeated by both" Ryan W.
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:51:50 PM
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That is a good point.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:13:19 PM
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Ok. This is a gamelin/french thread. Open a polish thread. There is much we can discuss about that. Hopefully daniel will get my pm and set up a history forum, and we can really start discussing this stuffThumbs Up

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
Anders
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:16:00 PM
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von_Bock wrote:
Norweigens,

Never heard of those before. Some tribe in the the South Pacific?

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

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Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 8:22:17 PM
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cueball wrote:
We should really have a Polish thread because I think it deserves one and Geofactor's points are well made.
Polish thread is opened. Relevant posts moved. Let the bloodletting commence;-)

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
cueball
Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 9:10:23 AM
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The Debacle in Belgium:

What actually happened was that Gamelin and Gort had thought they had discovered the focal point of the German attack, when the German Third and Fourth Panzer divisions attacked at Gembloux. Convinced that this was the main thrust of the armoured assault the Allies threw the French Cavalry Corps into the fray in order to delay the German advance, so that the infantry would have time to come up and reinforce the river and fort system in Belgium

After all if they can't come through Maginot, and they can not come through the Ardennes, it stand to reason they would come directly through Belgium over the Meuse.It was this miscalculation about the Ardennes that really killed them.

The operation in Belgium was completely successful, and the Germans were very impressed with operations of the French armour. Having delayed the advance of what the French and English thought was the main thrust of the German attack the French Cavalry Corps retreated in order to refit. That is when the main thrust of the German attack hit in the Ardennes forest, which the French had also made the mistake of believing was impenetrable to an armoured attack.

But the French had already expended their mobile reserve, and there was no appropriate forces to counter the main German attack, and try as he might Gamelin could not convince Gort to come up with the necessary divisions to mount an attack against the north flank of the German attack in the Ardennes. Gamelin made plans to make the flank attack with what he had available, at that point he was fired, and Weygand replaced him. Weygand, delayed the flank attack for two days, but decided to go ahead with it anyway, but in that time the German had already advanced the main body of their army and reinforced their positions.

The counter-attack failed.

But these three mistakes, committing the mobile reserve to the wrong sector, and under manning the Ardennes forest area at Sedan, and replacing the commander and chief of the army at the critical point in a battle were not errors of doctrine but errors of judgment.

In fact Gamelin applied the correct doctrine but miscalculated his enemies intentions, committing his mobile reserve aggressively to what he though was the Schwerpunkt, in an effort to stem the armoured assault (in this he succeeded) and then ordering an attack on the flank of Guderians army in an attempt to force them to withdraw when he realized his mistake. But at this point the French did not have the resources to bring it off effectively.

Trench Warfare:

Moreover, the French were no more guilty of thinking in terms of fixed fortifications and trench warfare than the Germans. Or to put that another way, everyone was thinking about WW I static defences, and trench warfare. Despite the fact that many people seem to be convinced that the Germans had dreamed up a whole new form of mobile warfare, free of fixed fortifications, the fact is that the Germans were not convinced of this in the slightest and invested heavily in forts and built the Zigfried line opposite Maginot, and also built numerous forts on the Polish border. In fact the existence of these fortification was a principle reason that Germany was able to embark on the their campaign in Poland, at least somewhat secure that they had alleviated the threat from the rear, by building forts, tank traps, block houses, and indeed trenches along the whole border between France and Germany.

In fact the Maginot line worked quite well since the Germans had to circumnavigate it and attack through Belgium and the Ardennes, as well as the Ziegfried line did in preventing an attack into Germany in the fall of 1939.

French Use of Armoured Divisions:

Nor did the French only use their armour in penny packets, though they did distribute a lot of it as infantry support, but they did in fact have several coherent tank focussed mechanized divisions, as could be found in the French Cavalry Corps which fought at Gembloux. In fact the the battle of Hannut, was the single largest tank battle of World War Two until the Battle of Kursk.

Quote:
During the battle of Hannut, general Prioux had the actual command of a real French tank corps facing a German tank corps. They inflicted heavy losses to the Germans. The use of such a French tank corps is unique during the 1940 campaign except perhaps the formation of the "groupement Buisson" beginning June for the battles on the Aisne and Retourne Rivers south of Rethel which grouped the 3e DCR and the 7e DLM.

On 14th May, having blocked the Germans as long as it was ordered, during 2 days, the cavalry corps moves back behind the French lines at Gembloux. Prioux is ordered to let part of his artillery to the French 1st army. During the battle of Gembloux (14th-15th May), the XVI. Panzerkorps will again be blocked by the 1e DM (Division Marocaine = Moroccan infantry division) and the 15e DIM (Division d'Infanterie Motorisée = motorized infantry division) which anchored their defenses on the Bruxelles-Namur railroad and the cities of Gembloux and Ernage. All the German assaults are repulsed and the XVI. Panzerkorps sustains heavy losses. Nevertheless the German breakthrough at Sedan will force the rather successful allied troops in Belgium to move back.


The French Cavalry Corps in 1940

Poland:

Poland was no miracle of modern warfare either. The fact is that they simply did not have the economy to produce a modern army of the kind Germany, France and Russia were producing. Simply put they resorted to cavalry as the main body of their mobile forces, because that is what they had. Little Poland was crushed by two of the most powerful countries on earth.

They did not have an mobile armoured reserve simply because they really had no tanks. It is pretty simple really. No doctrine could have saved Poland, when it was invaded by its powerful neighbor and then stabbed in the back by the even more powerful Soviet Union.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
GeneralSherman
Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 12:46:00 PM
 2nd Lieutenant
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Almost all the British generals have far too high skill ratings and far too many traits based on their historical record. British general level incompetence was at a very high standard at the start of WW2, and it didn't improve much. For Bernard Montgomery and Auchinleck and a couple of those other guys to have high skill levels (the same goes for American generals -- most of them sucked) is a crime against history. Montgomery was TERRIBLE. He rode one victory against an overwhelmingly overmatched opponent and his own self-promotion to a reputation. The men of the British First Airborne Division are only one group of men you could ask for an opinion on Montgomery.

Whack all the British generals in half, and all the early high level commanders down to 1. Cut at least one star off each American general. Mark Clark, Courtney Hodges, and Douglas "the American Montgomery" MacArthur should all be low-rated. Bradley no more than a 3. Some of the best American generals were Patton, Lucian Truscott and James Gavin. Eisenhower was ok, although he favored Montgomery foolishly.

The worst thing about Gamelin was that he was mentally unbalanced. He was insane, and he fell into despair and defeatism very quickly. He really was a big reason for the French collapse.

It's funny, the HOI map does not permit a replay of the war. Why no Sedan province? You simply cannot make that move through the Ardennes to the coast. The HOI map forces the Germans to do what the French expected, and it allows the defense the French planned to be effective. The disparity in unit quality means the Germans will ultimately win, so HOI does yield the right result in a different way, but it always bugs me.

Oh, and I always thought Guderian should get the engineer trait. He was a genius at forcing river crossings. He did one in Poland, I think two in Russia, and of course the Meuse in France. He was a master at improvisation. Giving him that trait would make it more possible for the Germans to do the historical attack on France.
Anders
Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 1:58:51 PM
 Generalfeldmarschall

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cueball wrote:
No doctrine could have saved Poland, when it was invaded by its powerful neighbor and then stabbed in the back by the even more powerful Soviet Union.
The USSR only took back what Poland took in the Soviet-Polish war in the 20s, when Poland had the help of every Capitalist power in the world. Areas where the majority of the population were ethnically Russian or Ukrainian. Basically, the USSR only took what had been Russian/Soviet at Brest-Litovsk

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 6:52:17 PM
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It was a Schuer-like stab in the back though, since Poland was already falling, and her SU just grabbed what they could. It was a stab in the back that would have made me proud.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
cueball
Posted: Monday, August 25, 2008 10:04:36 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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You think Gamelin was insane? I think Gort was the primary mover of defeat. I think that Gamelin became depressed when he realized that Gort was going to run away, and leave the French and the Belgian armies to be cut to pieces, on their own.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
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