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sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 4:47:24 PM
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My posting about gamelin resulted in a discussion between Von Bock and I about our favorite WWII era generals. He picked the usual suspects, and was completely surprised by my choice of bradley. He wanted to know why, and I told him that was way to deep a subject to discuss on msn.

So, to begin with Bradley was not your "normal" WWII general. He was a thoughtful, quiet reserved man who saw the importance of "taking care of his men". It is not for nothing that he is called " The Soldiers General". Those are minor considerations though. Bradley was the first american general to ever actually "command" an army group. He understood the importance of combined arms warfare. He was a "professional soldier" who studied warfare, just as he would study any other complex subject. He was the first american officer to realise that the experiences of WWI would have little bearing on WWII. He understood the importance of fast moving "calvary style" warfare, and was one of the few early proponents of airborne infantry.
He understood the importance of simplifying doctrine so that american "citizen soldiers" could understand and apply it. Bradley was the one who ordered patton to carry out his famous 90 mile trek, as an attempt to break the german army. His engineer trait is well deserved considering the numerous successful cross river attacks he commanded. He proved himself as a superior strategist to montgomery, by turning montgomery's "market garden" into the successful attack that captured the ruhr. Montgomery wanted a narrow "knifelike thrust", while bradley wanted a "broad front attack". By following his instincts, the 9th armored division was able to capture an intact bridge across the rhine over which bradley pushed 5 divisions.

Bradley saw the possibility of now striking at the Ruhr from the south, up the valley from Frankfurt, rather than from the British sector in the north. By 16 March he had pushed two corps over to the east bank of the Rhine and kept them moving toward the main north-south autobahn. At the same time he ordered Patton to seek a Rhine crossing in the vicinity of Oppenheim and then to drive north toward Giessen, where he was to link up with First Army. Patton crossed the Rhine with little difficulty on 23 March and immediately began his attack to the north. By 28 March First Army had driven from the Remagen bridgehead through the Lahn valley and beyond Giessen to Marburg, where its III Corps met XII Corps of Patton's Third Army.

By any definition bradley was a superior strategist and tactician. The match of any, and better than most.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
von_Bock
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 5:36:13 PM
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von Manstein. all I have to say Cool

when you disobey orders and are proven right against a ruthless dictator and get awards doesnt that say something Sergeant

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Anders
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:21:12 PM
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Look at a map over the western front after Cobra, and the obvious point of attack is directly into Germany, across the Rhine in one crossing, not having to secure at least four different bridges and plan one of the biggest airdrops ever. But Monty had to have his way; After all, he won at El Alamein, using the plans and preparations his predecessor left him...

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

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Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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cueball
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 7:42:09 PM
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von_Bock wrote:
von Manstein. all I have to say Cool

when you disobey orders and are proven right against a ruthless dictator and get awards doesnt that say something Sergeant


Which order did Manstein disobey, other than breaking out of the "Cherkassy Pocket" in 1944, against Hitler's orders. Did he get a piece of jewlery for that?

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:17:09 PM
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von_Bock wrote:
von Manstein. all I have to say Cool

when you disobey orders and are proven right against a ruthless dictator and get awards doesnt that say something Sergeant
Perhaps you refer to: Guderian was shocked by the stout resistance of the Red Army and as the severe Russian winter set in he made a limited withdrawal to better defensive ground. Guderian then returned to Germany where he argued with Adolf Hitler about the tactics being employed. After further disagreements with General Fedor von Bock and General Gunther von Kluge, On 25th December 1941 Guderian was dismissed from office.

After the defeats at El Alamein and Stalingrad, Hitler decided to recall Guderian and on 1st March 1943 he become commander of Germany's Armoured Troops. Guderian was unable to repeat earlier successes and in July 1943 lost one of the largest tank battles in history at Kursk.


I can find no record of von manstien doing the same.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
cueball
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:35:00 PM
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Well also the expansion of the Ardennes sailient in 1940, when Guderian and Rommel disobeyed orders and advanced to the Channel Coast, against the will of the OKH and the letter of the Manstein Plan. But again that was Guderian. I probably would have had them both shot for that.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 9:47:30 PM
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Imo the successes of the western-allies in france cannot be attributed by sheer skill alone. By the time the allies landed in unprepared France, Germany was on it's knees, fighting two enemies it alone couldnt cope with. It could only throw a token force against the Amis/Brits, while the major parts were occupied in Russia/Poland at that time. Sheer incompetence and stubbornness on hitler's side did cost us the war.

On who is the best general, without deeper knowledge i would go for Zhukov and Rommel.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
sonofliberty
Posted: Sunday, April 13, 2008 10:02:29 PM
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Both would make my type 5 WWII generals.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
Olorin
Posted: Saturday, April 19, 2008 6:18:52 PM
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Bradley was an indecisive, mediocre General with no strategic ability. His "command" of his Army Group was incompetent at best. He failed to close the Falaise pocket. He had no vision. His only advantage was his interest for the common soldier. I think he is overrated, like all allied generals, thanks to the vastly superior equipment under their command.
Geofactor
Posted: Saturday, April 19, 2008 9:18:59 PM
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Anders wrote:
Look at a map over the western front after Cobra, and the obvious point of attack is directly into Germany, across the Rhine in one crossing, not having to secure at least four different bridges and plan one of the biggest airdrops ever. But Monty had to have his way; After all, he won at El Alamein, using the plans and preparations his predecessor left him...

wasnt gen Gott in command in afrika for the most part?

""The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.".....Thomas Jefferson"
anonymous....we are legion...we dont forgive....we dont forget....expect us...
Geofactor
Posted: Saturday, April 19, 2008 9:33:41 PM
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Posted to Fort Clark in Texas, Patton, who believed that the U.S. would be involved in a war before long, rigorously trained the men under his command. As the 1930s drew to a close, Patton took command of Fort Myer. When the German Blitzkrieg was unleashed on Europe, he finally convinced Congress that the U.S. needed a more powerful armoured striking force and Patton finally got his star. He was promoted to brigadier general and put in command of the new armoured brigade, which he had to create by training the men in obsolete tanks.

As Patton's force expanded, it became the 2nd Armoured Division and Patton earned the rank of major general. Patton's famous "blood and guts" speeches of World War II began at this time in an amphitheater he had built to accommodate the entire division. His ability to turn up unexpectedly anywhere in the divisional training area became legendary at this time, too, as it would later in the 3rd Army. Using his Stimson Voyager he often commanded on manoeuvre while flying overhead where he could observe the entire area. Much of the credit for light observation planes coming into use in the Army can be attributed to this training technique of Patton's. He soon turned the 2nd Armoured Division into a formidable fighting implement, at one point keeping them in the field almost constantly for 17 weeks.

BRITISH GENERAL MONTGOMERY (RIGHT) WAS PATTON`S GREATEST RIVAL IN WW2. GENERAL OMAR BRADLEY STANDS IN THE MIDDLE.

They also carried the stamp of high morale and drive for which Patton's units were to become famous. Even Patton's wife Bee got in on the act by writing The March Song of the Armoured Force for the unit.

As the armoured forces expanded, so did Patton's responsibilities as he was given command of the Ist U. S. Armoured Corps. While plans for Operation Torch (the Allied invasion of North Africa) progressed early in 1942, Patton was sent to the American southwest to train his tankers for desert warfare. Patton drove the tankers hard, sometimes expecting them to go without sleep for 36 hours at a stretch, but they learned their craft his tankers would be used to deliver the first American jolt to the Germans.

In November 1942, Patton and his men participated in the invasion of North Africa. Before an all-out assault by Patton's tanks proved necessary, however, the French surrendered. As much as Patton loved battle, he was happy not to have to fight his old friends the French. Both the French and the Sultan of Morocco were impressed by Patton's style, which helped gain their cooperation after the American forces had occupied Morocco.

After the disastrous American defeat at the Kasserine Pass, Gen. Eisenhower knew that a hard driver was needed to recoup American morale and to force back the Germans. He immediately promoted Patton to lieutenant general and put him in charge of the 2nd Corps, which had suffered the defeat. Patton's first job was to restore the morale and discipline of the dispirited troops of his new command. He set about this mission with a vengeance. He began at the bottom by mandating strict enforcement of military rules governing hygiene and attire. Also, officers in the 2nd Corps were now ordered to set an example for their troops and lead them from the front, rather than safely from the rear.

According to Patton, "A man of diffident manner will never inspire confidence."' Patton's hard-nosed discipline and flamboyance succeeded in "waking up'' his men and won him their respect. He always wore his ivory-handled revolvers and medals, partly because he was a great showman, but primarily because having his men see all the trappings of rank let them know they were commanded by a fighting general. Patton also knew that loyalty to a leader would inspire men to take on objectives against all odds; his troops proved this theory correct again and again. Within a few months of taking over the 2nd Corps, Patton had galvanized them and by March 1943 their counteroffensive had pushed the Germans back, while Patton's British arch-rival Montgomery hit the Germans from the East.

In recognition of his accomplishments, Patton was given command of the new U.S. 7th Army in April 1943. He immediately threw himself into training his new command for the amphibious invasion of Sicily. When the invasion was launched, Patton's 7th Army was given the job of liberating the western half of the island, while Montgomery's 8th British Army took the eastern half. When a German counterattack delayed the advance, Patton put his command principles into practice by going ashore and personally taking command on the beach. Moving as far forward as possible, he joined a group of Rangers and helped engage the advancing Germans. With Patton driving them, the 7th broke out of the beachhead and advanced ahead of schedule, capturing Palermo and then driving on to Messina ahead of Montgomery.

Despite this victory, Patton found himself in trouble with military leaders after he slapped a soldier whom he considered a coward and a malingerer. There was pressure from some superiors in Washington and an ignorant public to have Patton relieved of duty. No one bothered to ask the men of the 7th Army what they thought. To a man, they considered the criticisms unjustified. Despite Patton's aggressiveness, they trusted him in combat. And trust in a commander wins more battles than all the world's hearts and minds put together. Fortunately, Eisenhower and Chief of Staff Marshall recognised Patton's virtues as a fighting general, too, and refused to dismiss him. In the end, Patton made a courageous public apology for the incident.

While most of the 7th Army's divisions were transferred to the 5th Army for the fighting in Italy, Patton was in Palermo awaiting a new assignment. He still proved useful, though, since the Germans feared him above all other Allied generals. They expected him to lead a major invasion. When he was sent to Corsica, the Germans were convinced he would lead an invasion of southern France. When he was sent to Cairo, they feared for an invasion through the Balkans. These diversions caused the Germans to tie down a great many troops to counter the Patton bogeyman.

In January 1944, Patton was finally ordered to England to form his new 3rd Army which he would lead to glory during the campaign to liberate Europe. Now an old hand at getting his troops in fighting trim, he began to mould the fledgling 3rd Army into one of the greatest fighting forces in American history. The 3rd Army was not used during Operation Overlord (the invasion of France) but still served a useful purpose, since Hitler and many members of the Abwehr (German military intelligence) believed that Normandy could not be the primary invasion site if Patton was not committed to the battle. The German command, therefore, held back critical Panzer divisions which could have opposed the landings. Eisenhower, knowing Patton's value at exploiting an enemy's weakness and driving through it, was holding Patton in reserve to breakout from the beachhead.

PATTON (LEFT) WITH EISENHOWER (CENTRE) AND OMAR BRADLEY (RIGHT)

While the 3rd Army trained in Britain, Patton studied the terrain of Normandy first hand. Actually, Patton had already mapped much of the area on jaunts when he was in France previously, so he was already familiar with the battlefield which would make the 3rd Army famous. Finally, on 28 July, Eisenhower turned Patton loose and the 3rd Army came sweeping across Northern France spearheaded by the 4th Armoured Division. Patton and his 3rd Army were turning the German's famed Blitzkrieg tactics against them, covering 600 miles in two weeks. During the first four weeks of the breakout, Patton was all over the front as his 3rd Army advanced so fast that entire German divisions were often bypassed to be mopped up by following elements.

One example of Patton's personal heroism occurred when a tanker was knocked off his vehicle by a shell fragment. Patton applied pressure to an artery on the man's arm until a corpsman arrived, probably saving the tanker's life. Another time he personally saved two Frenchmen from a collapsed building. Finally, as the 3rd Army approached the fortified city of Metz, their fuel and ammunition began to run out and the advance ground to a halt. Eventually, however' Metz fell to the 3rd Army-the first time in modern history the fortress had fallen. After the fall of Metz, the 3rd Army pushed on into the Saar Basin. When the German Ardennes offensive hit to the north and threatened to slice through the U.S. lines and drive to the sea, it was Patton who, at the gloomy meeting called by Eisenhower to evaluate the situation, saw that the German attack could be turned into an American victory if the Germans could be hit from the rear.

Calling upon the iron will and discipline he had instilled in his troops, Patton disengaged elements of the 3rd Army and hurled them northward into the worst winter to descend upon Europe in years. He did this in an attempt to hit the Germans in the flank and relieve Bastogne. Everyone outside the 3rd Army had felt this feat was impossible, but this was where the willingness of the 3rd Army to perform the impossible for their leader paid off. By 5 February 1945, the 3rd Army was back on the offensive all along the Saar front as Patton drove into Germany. Patton's oft-quoted dictum, "Grab 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the ass" was in full play. His tactic was to hit the Germans in the front lines and then drive into their flanks and rear with his armoured units. In so doing, his troops succeeded in cutting off entire German divisions during this advance. Hundreds of thousands of German troops were taken prisoner.

When the 3rd Army liberated Buchenwald concentration camp, though, Patton slowed his pace. He instituted the policy, later adopted by other commanders, of forcing local German civilians to tour the camps. By the time the armistice finally came, the 3rd Army, now consisting of more than a half-million men, had liberated or conquered 81,522 square miles of territory and inflicted 1,443,888 casualties on the enemy.

GENERAL PATTON TAKEN SHORTLY BEFORE HIS UNTIMLEY DEATH.

Patton, however, was not ready to rest on his laurels. He requested a transfer to the Pacific theatre so he could fight the Japanese. The request was, of course, denied, respectfully. The mind boggles at the thought of Patton serving under Macarthur! One congressman even proposed that Patton be made Secretary of War, but Patton's lack of diplomacy guaranteed the suggestion was never taken seriously. Back in Germany, while on occupation duty after a visit to the States during which he was welcomed with parades as a conquering hero, Patton's outspokenness got him into trouble yet again when he tried justifying the use of ex-Nazis in important administrative positions during the occupation of Bavaria. Patton had also been willing to make known his view that the United States and Britain should re-arm the Germans and fight the Russians.

As a result of his ''unofficial'' remarks, he was relieved of the command of his beloved 3rd Army.Though he had been showered with honours when he had returned to the United States, there was obviously a great deal of discussion in Washington about what to do with Patton now that the war was over. Invaluable in war, Patton's temperament was somewhat of a liability in peacetime. In many ways, it would have been fitting for Patton the warrior to have died on the battlefield, but that was not to be. Despite the fact that throughout his military career he had constantly exposed himself to danger, it was a traffic accident, not a bullet, which took Patton's life. In December 1945, his car was hit by a truck and he was severely injured. On 21 December he died from these injures and was buried in Luxembourg, a country which still considers George S. Patton its liberator.



Since his death, Patton's reputation has continued to grow until he is now considered by many the greatest military commander in U. S history. The praise levered on him by the men of 3rd Army has nearly drowned out any lingering criticisms about his brashness. Even today, 3rd Army veterans are proud to make it known that they served under Patton. George Patton's ambition as a boy was to be a general, a hero and a warrior. History has proven that he succeeded magnificently at all three.


""The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.".....Thomas Jefferson"
anonymous....we are legion...we dont forgive....we dont forget....expect us...
sonofliberty
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:15:05 AM
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Olorin wrote:
Bradley was an indecisive, mediocre General with no strategic ability. His "command" of his Army Group was incompetent at best. He failed to close the Falaise pocket. He had no vision. His only advantage was his interest for the common soldier. I think he is overrated, like all allied generals, thanks to the vastly superior equipment under their command.
Do you have any proof or anything to back up your assertions? Everything I have ever read or seen about bradley indicates he was a superior commander.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
cueball
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:51:48 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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When it comes down to it. I don't think any American generals got a chance to prove themselves in that war. They only entered the European war when Germany was already 3/4rs dead. They had men and material to their advantage. None were really hard pressed. Russian and German generals showed themselves to be what they were both in victory and defeat. Manstein for example fought resourcefully to the end of the war. Rommel, though a popular figure basicly had a nervous breakdown, as far as I can tell, after it became obvious he was losing in Africa. Numerous Russian generals like Timoshenko and Zhukov made it through early defeats to turn the onslaught around and become victors.

For me its hard to discern the qualities of American generals because they really only commanded over four big fights, Torch in 42, Italy in 43, Normandy in 44, and of course the Bulge. Also, the qualities of these three generals (Eisenhower, Bradley and Patton) are substantially different, Eisenhower, had a political mind, which perhaps made him suitable for the role he played as interlocutor between the Allied forces at Normandy, while Bradley had the termperament, I think, to hold things together through good and bad. Patton's agressiveness might have got him into some serious hot water, though, and while the his acomplishments in the Battle of the Bulge rank as the most remarkable achievement of the US army during the war, we may remind ourselves, that in doing so he was abandoning the slow grinding offensive at the Metz fortification where he haplessly threw more and more men into a meat grinder without any real results.

His idea that "fixed fortifications" were a thing of the past, seemed to have met its nadir in that engagement. They were lucky to have him around, that is for sure, but still my sense is that the Bulge offensive was really a last desperate gamble that was simply doomed to fail from lack of resources. Were it me, and were I to be able to choose who would command me, and whose advice I would listen to with the most weight, I think overall, I would pick Bradley, in the end.

I ask did they need to close the Falaise Gap? I mean once that pivot point was captured, and the German lined turned, one way or the the other, the Germans would be running for the Rhine, there only defensible position. So, yes, they might have indeed caused the collapsing German army more damage than they did, but at what possible cost? Time, material, and men where on the US side defintely, and in that equation was there real need to expose American and Allied soldiers to enhanced risk?

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Olorin
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 1:34:49 PM
 Unterfeldwebel

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sonofliberty wrote:
Do you have any proof or anything to back up your assertions? Everything I have ever read or seen about bradley indicates he was a superior commander.


A good read is Armageddon by Max Hastings. I didn't say he was a bad commander, I said he was mediocre. Tell me one instance where he showed real vision or excellence. There is none. In any situation, he comes off as barely adequate.
cueball
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 5:26:48 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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Didn't he hire Patton to command 3rd Army?

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
sonofliberty
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 7:56:36 PM
Free Man

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cueball wrote:
Didn't he hire Patton to command 3rd Army?
Sure did. Patton would not have gotten the position without bradley's backing. Eisenhower originally wanted to sack him, but bradley convinced the "chair warmers" around ike to keep patton around. He even got him his third star.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
cueball
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:12:42 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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Getting the right people under your command is probably one of the most important aspect of field rank. Stalin wanted to sack Timoshenko in July 41, but Zhukov supported him, saying: "The men like him."

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
von_Bock
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:29:50 PM
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cueball wrote:
I ask did they need to close the Falaise Gap? I mean once that pivot point was captured, and the German lined turned, one way or the the other, the Germans would be running for the Rhine, there only defensible position. So, yes, they might have indeed caused the collapsing German army more damage than they did, but at what possible cost? Time, material, and men where on the US side defintely, and in that equation was there real need to expose American and Allied soldiers to enhanced risk?
Did they need to? Probably not, but from a strategic point of view, trapping the enemy army and focing it to surrender is far more favorable as it ultimately deprives them of more forces that otherwise would of been used against them Later. I would also argue that it was a huge failure on the part of the allies to not do the same to the Ardennes attack.

And for these reasons it shows to me that the US leadership did not take the inniative to capitalize on the mistakes of the enemy, and this is what ultimately what makes the Russian and German officers more respected in the History circle.

But in the end I think the problem with the american leadership was it was more concerned with protecting the lives of its own soldiers and of the civilian population of Occupied territory, not a bad thing. But tactically a mistake.

"The pen is mightier then the sword and I just got defeated by both" Ryan W.
sonofliberty
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:40:23 PM
Free Man

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von_Bock wrote:
...But in the end I think the problem with the american leadership was it was more concerned with protecting the lives of its own soldiers and of the civilian population of Occupied territory, not a bad thing. But tactically a mistake.

You dont win wars by dying for your country, you win by making the other bastard die for his. Some famous general said that;-)

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
von_Bock
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:44:06 PM
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sonofliberty wrote:
You dont win wars by dying for your country, you win by making the other bastard die for his. Some famous general said that;-)
yes but, loosing 3,000 more soldiers in todays battle to save 30,000 of tommorows makes sense too.


But I must admit, I play that similar style whenever possible, I just love to bring full power projection on my opponent by utilizing all branches of my military working in harmony to complely overwhelm him in all aspects.

"The pen is mightier then the sword and I just got defeated by both" Ryan W.
cueball
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 10:25:25 PM
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I think its actually "...some poor son of a bitch die for his."

Again, there are real problems with counter-factual history told by armchair generals. For example Falaise pocket happens at the extreme end of a very hard fought battle for Normandy, that severly tested the Allied forces. Just reading the accounts of the Poles at Falaise indicates that the Germans were willing to commit very seriously to this battle, and were desperate to hold it open. After the hard fight for Normandy despite whatever possible advantage there was too prosecuting this operation to the extreme limits of what was possible, we can not tell, even if the Allied forces were in proper shape to commit to it, in the way that was necessary.

Its not just about drawing lines on a map, it is also about gauging the effectiveness of ones forces. Having one the battle for Normandy it may just have been that the Allied armies simply did not have the emoitional gas to commit to closing the Falaise pocket, so dreaming about what might have been seems a little speculative.

A serious defeat at this time might really have damaged the overall campaign. Ultimately I think Bradley and Patton made a good team.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
von_Bock
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:36:38 PM
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I suppose after a hard days battle it is better to allow your enemy to flee and regroup then it is to risk persuing and crushing him...

"The pen is mightier then the sword and I just got defeated by both" Ryan W.
cueball
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 11:50:18 PM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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I suppose soldiers don't always do as they are told, and sometimes a good general sizes up the state of his soldiers before he makes them go that extra mile. There are numerous occassions of this kind of thing happening. On the other hand someone who was always defying fate, and pressing his troops to go the extra mile was in fact one of the greatest failures of WW2. This being Erwin Rommel whose incapacity to estimate correctly both his supply situation and his reserve, as well as the state of his troops led him to achieve a series of chemeric victories, that were not victories at all but illusions on the map. Bradley, unlike Rommel, chose always to do it right the first time, as opposed to chasing elusive semi-victories like Rommel. Patton had the same instincts as Rommel from what I can tell.

The fact of the matter is that Rommel, despite all the hoopla about his daring, in fact only played a decisive roll in two clear German victories (in Italy in WW1 and in France in WW2 -- as a junior officer I might add) and lost every single campaign that he was the overall commander of.

The reality is that the qualities that it takes to lead a division are not necessarily the same as those it takes to command an Army.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Anders
Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:42:07 AM
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In Rommel's defense, he never commanded more than a corps in Africa, and faced vastly superior forces. That said, he could probably have won if not for that huge disadvantage of having the Italians aboard.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

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Anders is correct.

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Yeah, Anders is right.

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I would tend to agree with Anders.

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cueball
Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 2:06:30 AM
 Tribunus laticlavius

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There were many good Italian soldiers in Africa. Rommel himself relied heavily on the very capable Italian airborne division.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
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