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Top 5 generals of WWII (Flag Officers) Options · View
cueball
Posted: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 8:11:20 PM
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Again, Kirponos. He died in Kiev. Had he not been the only Soviet Front Commander actually at his CP on the night on June 21, the story of Barbarossa might have been very different. His front was the only one of the three main Soviet fronts to fight an agressive fighting retreat.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Anders
Posted: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:40:01 PM
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Did someone mention Dietl, the hero of Narvik yet?

and look what I found :
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5057772384452125306

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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cueball
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 4:16:07 AM
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Another one of Winston's cracked schemes.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
TheWretchedMass
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:08:16 AM
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cueball wrote:
Again, Kirponos. He died in Kiev. Had he not been the only Soviet Front Commander actually at his CP on the night on June 21, the story of Barbarossa might have been very different. His front was the only one of the three main Soviet fronts to fight an agressive fighting retreat.


He was able to because Von Rundstedts army group south was by far the smallest.
TheWretchedMass
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:12:46 AM
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Olorin wrote:
First post, hi gentlemen...

My top 5:

1. Von Manstein
2. Guderian
3. Rommel
4. Patton
5. Von Rundstedt

If this was a top 10, no other American or British general would have made it in mine.


Subtract patton and thats a good list. Why Von Rundstedt?
TheWretchedMass
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 5:14:13 AM
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sonofliberty wrote:
Mine?
1) Omar Bradley
2) Guderian
3) Zhukov
4) Rommel
5) Tie between Nimitz and Yamamoto


Why Yamamoto? didnt he lose just about every battle to the americans.

Omar Bradley are you serious?

cueball
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:16:12 AM
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TheWretchedMass wrote:
He was able to because Von Rundstedts army group south was by far the smallest.


In reverse that is almost an arguement in favour of Von Rundstedt.

Kirponos stands out, both in character and ability. He was actually in his post on the night of the attack, unlike Pavlov who was at the opera in Minsk. It may be true that Kirponos had the better odds, but he also had the largest front, and if you actually look at how he commanded the resources that he had, you see a substantial difference between him and the other front line commanders. Furthermore, the terrain in the Ukraine was far better suited to the kind of warfare the Germans were practicing, how the huge natural advantages of the forests and river systems of the Baltics were overcome by Army Group North so rapidly, is not just a credit to the Wermacht ingenuity but also miracle of military incompetence on behalf of the Red Army.

If the collapse of the Baltic Front was a miracle of incompetence, then Pavlov in the center proved himself to be the Saint of Idiocy. A comparison of Pavlov and Kirponos is a study in the difference between a responsible thinking officer, and an empty uniform. Kirponos unlike, the other front commanders, ignored Stalin's view that the German perperations were a provocation, and was in his command post organizing his front line and issuing orders immediatly as the initial attack developed. After the attack commenced, while Pavlov vacililated, and made up stories both to his superiors and his subordinates, telling the latter that reinforcing divisions were on the way, and telling the former that the line was being held (when in fact he had no idea where any of his divisions were) Kirponos was sending real divisions to the front, and organizing real counter-attacks. He continued effectively as a commander in this capacity, until he was killed in Kiev because he decided to remain with the rear guard.

All in all its a pretty soldierly and honourable performance, in my opinion. It's hard to say what he might of been able to do from a position of advantage. In my view too much attention is paid to those officers who succeeded where they had natural superiority, and the real measure of an officer is how they operated under extreme hardship. Dietl is another good example of this. Needless to say I am not a big fan of Rommel, who managed to lose the African campaign three times. Mannerheim made my list immediatly.

The question about Yamamoto is a good one. He certainly gets mixed reviews. He was a brilliant visionary in some ways, but not such a great naval commander, and many people have criticized his battle plans as overly complex. But again, if you are comparing him to Nimitz for example, it is hard to say, really because Nimitz was operating with every possible advantage on his side.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
Anders
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 1:26:03 PM
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To Rommel's defense, he never got enough supplies in Africa, due to political and logistical reasons. And he managed to delay the British occupation of Libya by two years, which crippled Allied logistics in the Med.

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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cueball
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 2:41:13 PM
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Who attacks without having supply figured out? If you don't have the supply to support you position, it seems to me that attacking is futile, since you will not be able to exploit the situation. The Rommel case is a case in point. He was lucky in France that he did not get cut off. In Africa his impetuous nature got the better of him. That is they way I look at it. Probably just not fit to command at that level. Did not have the patience for it. Does not mean that he was not a good general, not really? But some people are better at some things than others, and when you are at the FM level, really you aren't much more than a supply officer with medals.

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
hiensen
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 6:58:43 PM
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TheWretchedMass wrote:
Subtract patton and thats a good list. Why Von Rundstedt?


Patton rocks immo, he was a brilliant armoured offensive general, he smashed the axis with sheer numbers and agressive tactics.German intelligence was aware of his skills and feared about fighting troops commanded by him.Have an eye on D-day fake operations and u will see at wich point germans were peeing in their pants when they though he was leading nord pas de Calais landing.LOL
Cohen
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:42:03 PM
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Von Manstein
Guderian
Rommel
Student
Zhukov



Cohen

"War is a Clash of Will, meant to be brought with maximum violence."
Anders
Posted: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:55:19 PM
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hiensen wrote:
he smashed the axis with sheer numbers and agressive tactics.

Not exactly an arguiment in Patton's favour, H.


"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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TheWretchedMass
Posted: Friday, June 06, 2008 4:27:35 AM
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hiensen wrote:
Patton rocks immo, he was a brilliant armoured offensive general, he smashed the axis with sheer numbers and agressive tactics.German intelligence was aware of his skills and feared about fighting troops commanded by him.Have an eye on D-day fake operations and u will see at wich point germans were peeing in their pants when they though he was leading nord pas de Calais landing.LOL


Guy had more balls than brains. I could have commanded a victory against the Germans at that point. After the tap for a birdie against the Germans he says, "well lets keep going to moscow." The US would have been steam rolled by USSR at that time. The Sherman roman candle against the T-34? Give me a break.
Anders
Posted: Friday, June 06, 2008 5:10:39 AM
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Let's not let it degenerate into "Sherman vs T-34".
IIRC, there's already a thread about that somewhere else in Off-Topic.


"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

Support Ederon.net via your Amazon purchases!

I joined Ederon.net before it became mainstream
cueball
Posted: Friday, June 06, 2008 6:46:21 AM
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How about... Most concieted General of World War II

For a straighforward copy over zip version go here: Goerings Delay -- NZQS -- 1.3b.rar

The Mod can also be set up with the Jones Generic Mod Enabler and has worked fine in that mode in my tests. This version has everything in it, 1.3beta, JSGME and the East is Red patch, and can be installed straight to your Armageddon 1.2 (ZBLV) folder without disrupting vanilla at all. It has the 1.3beta exe update and JGSME Mod system right in it. Just unzip to your main doomsday folder, copy the contents of the folder, then past into the main folder, then enable the mod using the JSGME system. Once you execute the JSGME it is pretty self-explanatory: EIR NZQS --ARMA 1.3beta complete 1.3b

Small patch from XTPS or NZQS 1.2 to NZQS 1.3b: Goering EIR -- Patch 1.3b

It would be a dangerous folly for the British people to underrate the enduring position in world history which Mussolini will hold; or the amazing qualities of courage, comprehension, self-control and perseverance which he exemplifies.

Sir Winston -- 1937
hiensen
Posted: Friday, June 06, 2008 11:02:43 AM
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Anders wrote:
Not exactly an arguiment in Patton's favour, H.


Geofactor already posted something very interesting about him above or in Bradley post, I don't need to argue anymore with precise facts geo made all the dirty job.


And wretched we are not arguing about generals thoughs or at this point I don't see why choose nazis or soviet commanders as best ones then.LOL
He wanted to kick soviet arses it's his problem (he didn't like this dictatorship and he was right) but the decision had to be taken by Eisenhower not him.
acme
Posted: Wednesday, September 22, 2010 2:56:15 PM
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cueball wrote:
In reverse that is almost an arguement in favour of Von Rundstedt.
He was actually in his post on the night of the attack, unlike Pavlov who was at the opera in Minsk.


june 21 was a hot summer saturday night, when all those vodka lovers went out. Smile
not a coincidence that germans attacked sunday morning.

I have to agree that kirponos was far above the average russian skills, he really did try to do something, he actually 'commanded', but i dont think he was that better than pavlov.

btw pavlov had to face 2x more panzer divisions in 2 pzgroups than kirponos, while kirponos had more and better tanks (with more t34 and kvs), because of the russian offensive plans in the SW front. facing kleist was not a peace of cake, but dealing with guderian's and hoth's repeating encirlcing is an other thing.
imho no commancder or army at the time had any chance against those early encirclements.

Yeh the terrain was really better in ukraine, however it was also adequate for mount counterattacks with the thousands of armors kirponos had.
One of kirponos main fault was, that he did not wait for proper concentration of the mech corps' and launched the counterattack on june 26. Some say it was a bigger tankbattle than kursk.

by the way did you know that pavlov beated the 'starcommander' zhukov in a simulated war (pavlov as germans)?
recent researchs state that zhukov was not that great as the russian propaganda poses him.

my votes:

manstein,
guderian,
vasilievsky
rommel,
O'connor

Geofactor
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 8:35:15 AM
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Though he had no part in WW2 Josef Pilsudski is an interesting choice. I believe he is the real father of the blitzkreig!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281920%29

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Forgiven
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 9:46:36 AM
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Since you used necromancy on such nice topic, I bothered to find myself top three of random order, I might add few more later but this is it for now...

Kesselring
Dönitz
Woldemar Hägglund (had to find proper finn for this, Mannerheim gets too much credit anyways..)

Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Which is a problem, if you are powerless.
Athe
Posted: Saturday, September 25, 2010 7:32:19 PM
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I'm not an expert on the subject, but if I may, here go my 5. I decided not to repeat nationalities (which means my list does not necessarily reflect who I think is best, although they're all very good in my opinion), otherwise there would be a huge majority of Germans, and taking a quick look at the post, it lacks variety! Taking that into account, here are my 5 choices:

1) Guderian
2) Montgomery (He is to blame for market garden, though)
3) Rokossovsky
4) Siilasvuo
5) Xue Yue
Matnjord
Posted: Monday, November 28, 2011 12:21:05 AM
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Sorry for necroing this thead but I had to counter this:


Geofactor wrote:
Though he had no part in WW2 Josef Pilsudski is an interesting choice. I believe he is the real father of the blitzkreig!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Warsaw_%281920%29



There was no real blitzkrieg doctrine, it was just a new fancy name the allies gave to the traditionnal doctrine of "shock and awe" (used before with cavalry) and german doctrines of infiltration (stormtruppen in WWI) and of the decisive battle. Just look at Sedan and the Schlieffen plan! Concentration of forces at the weakest ennemy point and mass encirclement of its troops were no new things in warfare. What the germans did in 1940 was simply a modernization of these (with coordination of planes and tanks). No disrespect of Pilsudsi, his victory in front of Warsaw was nothing short of flabbergasting (especially considering his lack of military training) but he did not invent any kind of fantasy doctrine.

Matnjord
sonofliberty
Posted: Monday, November 28, 2011 7:23:26 AM
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Athe wrote:
I'm not an expert on the subject, but if I may, here go my 5. I decided not to repeat nationalities (which means my list does not necessarily reflect who I think is best, although they're all very good in my opinion), otherwise there would be a huge majority of Germans, and taking a quick look at the post, it lacks variety! Taking that into account, here are my 5 choices:

1) Guderian
2) Montgomery (He is to blame for market garden, though)
3) Rokossovsky
4) Siilasvuo
5) Xue Yue
The recent necromancy brought this to my attention. Montgomery??? Seriously?? I can't put him in my top 10 British commanders in WWII. Much less top 5 overall for the war.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. -- That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, -- That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

There is a new game on the way Project Blitzkrieg
Mighty G
Posted: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:00:47 AM
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Most Americans tend to have that view of monty i have found. But when you get down to the meat and potatoes of the matter Americans were in a power struggle with the british for command of the european front very audibly and very well documented. It tends to be this combined with the failures of marketgarden that give most americans a bad view of monty. They also tend to overlook his wise use of time and resources in africa.

I don't see him as being that bad or that great, He used his advantages wisely in Africa to guarantee a win. As for market garden history as we now know tellls us that you have a higher chance of success with a smaller well trained team being inserted from the air. I dont think the whole failure of market garden rest squarely on montgomerys shoulders.

He was a good general but maybe not quite Great.

**Edit (looking at the name of the Thread). Monty was deffinantly in the top 5 list of British "Flag" officers. It is well documented that the troops were quite fond and generally relieved of being under his command. (british troops that is, US troops would have whined no matter what UK commander they were under).




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George Orwell

Mighty G
Posted: Monday, November 28, 2011 9:25:47 AM
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Matnjord wrote:
Sorry for necroing this thead but I had to counter this:
There was no real blitzkrieg doctrine, it was just a new fancy name the allies gave to the traditionnal doctrine of "shock and awe" (used before with cavalry) and german doctrines of infiltration (stormtruppen in WWI) and of the decisive battle. Just look at Sedan and the Schlieffen plan! Concentration of forces at the weakest ennemy point and mass encirclement of its troops were no new things in warfare. What the germans did in 1940 was simply a modernization of these (with coordination of planes and tanks).
Matnjord


Blitzkrieg is nothing at all like "Concentration of forces at the weakest ennemy point and mass encirclement".

I don't think you know what you are talking about at all. Blitzkrieg is more like a pack of elephants breaking through your line (wherever it wants) with the weakest spot being the most obvious point of attack. The elephants then continue to break down your barriers until it gets to the rear and can can choose with relative impunity what to do next. As 2 refrences to this you can sight French reports of the germans arriving before they could establish new rear lines on multiple occasions.

I will say though when you get down to the nuts and bolts of warfare not much has changed since man picked up a stick. If you look at a pincer attack it most deffinantly looks like a Zulu attack. Hit them with the front and gore them from the sides like a bulls horns.

Speed and style is the active ingredients and its impacts on modern warfare are highly visible. The word blitzkrieg has been highly oversensationalised i agree to that.

If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
George Orwell

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