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Mr.G
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 12:01:32 AM
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Might as well make a seperate thread on the thoughts of this session and others. Also to inform who are watching.

For starters it was quite fun, the Crimean war, I was hesitant when I came back from lunch, but when I saw no Russians on the border I pounced. My military was barely up to snuff but I was able beat up the Russians with the help from Anders. For M&M it was unfortunate turn as he wasn't able and instead the AI made a crappy decision on peace Sweden only gaining one province. I then made a nice peace getting some farmland and even a factory.

My industry improved, I made sure each factory had the 2/3 ratio and I swallowed some countries who weren't in line with Prussian ways; that will probably send my BB skyward. Russian war payments gave me around 130,000 dollars which soon expanded my economy big time making a war between France and I no longer a contest (for now) and now even UK is in trouble for number 1 spot. But all in all I'm a paper tiger, my economy is in trouble as I ran out of all the cash and now relying on tariffs; something I never had to do for such a long period of time. All in all I think it was step forward rather then backwards. For the life of me I don't know how most countries are making such a nice gain in income.

On the international scale things have gotten real interesting, France, Prussia and UK are in a league of their own, but we wont stay their forever as new countries have appeared in mass. One thing I and I think the rest of Europe will keep an eye on Japan, huge populations and resources make Schuer a potential threat to the world. But I'm sure the Japanese are reasonable people. Scandinavia was formed and gained the prestige spot and look good and look to get a sizable claim in Africa. Austria and Spain lost to French backed Sardinia and they were on the decline temporarily, from the looks of it, I'm sure that wont stay.

Next session will bring in full blown colonialism, wars and the unknown.
Mr. Sljivovic
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 12:18:42 AM
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It was great fun indeed, Spain was racing me with colonies in Africa and when they dowed Sardinia we were close to have a open war. We never engaged eachother, but i merely mediated in the peace settlement. I thought Prussia was concidering to help the Austrians. Would have been nice with a threefrontal war for France. Tongue

But im not in sutch a bad shape as you think Mr.G, we have equall armies, and techs. You would have more cash reserves to sustain a prolonged war, but i have other means to fund my army if it becomes neccessary Devil

Нама Добро а Никоме Зло - Kraljevo
Mr.G
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 12:26:08 AM
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Mr. Sljivovic wrote:
It was great fun indeed, Spain was racing me with colonies in Africa and when they dowed Sardinia we were close to have a open war. We never engaged eachother, but i merely mediated in the peace settlement. I thought Prussia was concidering to help the Austrians. Would have been nice with a threefrontal war for France. Tongue

But im not in sutch a bad shape as you think Mr.G, we have equall armies, and techs. You would have more cash reserves to sustain a prolonged war, but i have other means to fund my army if it becomes neccessary Devil


Don't think I didn't think about it :-d I have my reason not but I grabbed a defensive alliance to make sure you don't go after Hyzton, frankly if it wasn't for Anders unexpected want for peace I would of mobilized and maybe even declared war but while I was going over my factories it seemed a large army was destroyed and the path towards Vienna open, so peace was issued.

I think France is much more powerful country the Prussia, everyone knows a good amount about everyone else thanks to the ledgers and from what I can tell you lead in all.

Needless to say, a lot of paths were not taken and some were I just hope that for god sakes I can get a strong economy.
Hytzon
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 12:37:27 AM
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Good analysis MrG and yes it was definatly a fun game. I made a major mistake trying to take some provinces from Sardinia, in the end I got nothing but 100 lost prestige. This sent me from 7th place to 9th Troll .
Also, Spain is a country with very low population for my ambitions - but that's what is so fun about this game. I am backwards now, but if all the other european countries engage in a long war, I will just keep on boosting my small industrial base Smile In the hindsight, if I had known all of you (not M&M, and not so much Schuer) took über countries I might have chosen otherwise - but it is a fun ride anyways. Actually my main goal is just to finish as a great nation, something Spain was far from in 1935 Tongue

You can't say civilization don't advance - for in every war, they kill you in a new way.
Mr.G
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 12:43:44 AM
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I kind of wanted Spain or the Ottomans but I felt Prussia more important to be filled, I will no doubt pay for it as on paper I will become by far the strongest nation, and we all know what will happen next.

Spain I think is a good nation to choose, I don't worry about prestige cause of the opportunity to gain some later. Spain has population and potential, I expect you to be quite powerful actually.
M&M
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:53:35 AM
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sorry for disappearing. But my ISP decided to do some hardware maintenance apparently and I was cut off for a few hours. It really sucks that you guys continued, ofcourse the AI would screw me over. I've been counting & preparing since the start of the game for the liberation of finland and now I can't do that. Mad
Anders
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:34:28 AM
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Look on the bright side, M&M: At least Scandinavia was released, and the Finnish province Sweden got from Russia became a core. None of the other Finnish provinces are SWE/SCA cores anymore.
I agree it sucks, but getting a high enough warscore against Russia to be able to demand all of Finland successfully takes quite a lot more conquered territory than I think you and Mr. G would have been able to take. I couldn't get the Russians to give me what I wanted even when demanding about 60% of what I already occupied.
There will probably be other chances of war with Russia, and if and when we convert to HoI2, we can add in any other Finnish cores you might have captured.


"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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Hytzon
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 10:43:38 AM
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I understand that you are a bit annoyed M&M, but as Anders say you probably wouldn't have gotten all of it anyways. Also Anders made a seperate peace, and Russia had finally mobilized their reserves. If I crash and don't appear within the next 20-30 minutes, you can continue without me as well. I take it more as a challenge Smile

You can't say civilization don't advance - for in every war, they kill you in a new way.
M&M
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 11:48:19 AM
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Quote:
Look on the bright side, M&M: At least Scandinavia was released, and the Finnish province Sweden got from Russia became a core. None of the other Finnish provinces are SWE/SCA cores anymore

Scandanavia already happened ? Thats in 60's I believe. But the whole point of getting those cores before I turned scandi was because I did not gain any Badboys. The pops there are all of my national culture and I would've been able to get alot more then just one province. I was already advancing into central russia after encircling and killing some 80k russian soldiers from their reserves.
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:54:22 PM
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Maybe we can add the cores to Scandi in order to ease the pain for MM. I agree we maybe should have waited for MM or quit for the evning, but we just advanced so well. And doing 19-20 years just proves this spectacular session. Adding the cores would only be fair, because if played on he probably wouldn't have accepted such a lousy deal, especially with UK having parts of finland now. I think that UK now has parts of finland hurts the most. Well, if you all wanna gang up on UK, i sure am ready for it, as the round eyed devils occupied the curiles which i claim.

Speaking for myself, i really like the way it worked out for Japan. First of all, my pre-civilization industry affords really seemed to pay off. Although of course having quite high taxes, i had a surplus of about 40-60 at all times. 20 money expenses, up to 80-90 tax payments and exports. Industry scor of about 200 when i got civilized. in 1865, 5 years of being civilized and having gobbled up Korea, i already have an industrial score of 600, leaving other great nations of europe behind. Also a great ide to depopulate Korea: Using only korean armies Wink

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Anders
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 3:57:48 PM
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I should perhaps add that I STILL have the save from when M&MPharaoh crashed, in case there should be a consensus to revert. (I'll go with the majority on that.)

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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Mr.G
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 4:38:18 PM
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I already stated that I will help MM get his land back. A lot has happened since he crashed and I think a suitable edit would do justice.

In terms of land Sweden was to gain it would of been very little. I would think 3-4 more provinces that were non core. Prussia had the capital and the majority of the land and the warscore of 90 and I couldn't get any national cores from Russia and barely the Polish ones. I would suggest a simple reload with someone loading up as the UK and handing the land over to Scandi, that would be a realistic peace deal and simple without having to edit the text.
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 5:10:02 PM
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that sounds good, the whole reload thing. Will be pretty easy that way, i think anders should do it.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Anders
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 5:20:33 PM
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I think the easiest way to do it is just to move the "owned" and "controlled" province numbers from UK to Scandi, and add them as cores as well (savefile-editing). I suggest we restrict it to the provinces Sweden had cores in initially, as I don't think M&M would've gotten the rest as cores.


"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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M&M
Posted: Thursday, March 22, 2007 8:49:30 PM
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UK also got parts of finland ? So now I not only have to fight russia again on my own (or possibly with prussia's aid) but I need to fight UK too Rolleyes ? Both would require mobilization which sort of cripples me.

Quote:
In terms of land Sweden was to gain it would of been very little. I would think 3-4 more provinces that were non core. Prussia had the capital and the majority of the land and the warscore of 90 and I couldn't get any national cores from Russia and barely the Polish ones. I would suggest a simple reload with someone loading up as the UK and handing the land over to Scandi, that would be a realistic peace deal and simple without having to edit the text.

Unlike you with poland, finland isn't a core for russia so they wouldn't have been so hesitant to leave it. I had a warscore of 40'ish and I didn't expand into mainland russia.


I would be perfectly content with having ownership of finland edited to me. But having scandi gain cores on them has very little effect except for war. The pops in finland are of the same national culture so they work at their usual efficiency and I can build factories there too.
Hytzon
Posted: Friday, March 23, 2007 12:26:04 PM
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Gen.Schuermann wrote:
Speaking for myself, i really like the way it worked out for Japan. First of all, my pre-civilization industry affords really seemed to pay off. Although of course having quite high taxes, i had a surplus of about 40-60 at all times. 20 money expenses, up to 80-90 tax payments and exports. Industry scor of about 200 when i got civilized. in 1865, 5 years of being civilized and having gobbled up Korea, i already have an industrial score of 600, leaving other great nations of europe behind. Also a great ide to depopulate Korea: Using only korean armies Wink


I know that many of the other Vici MP'ers have a rule which limits this soldier POP "abuse"; The amount of regular divisions in your army must always be at least double the amount of native divisions. eg. Your army consists of 90 divisions, 60 must be regular, while 30 may be native.

I think this rule seems fair otherwise we will suddenly see HUGE armies all over the place.

You can't say civilization don't advance - for in every war, they kill you in a new way.
Mr. Sljivovic
Posted: Friday, March 23, 2007 2:13:35 PM
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Is there a ledger somewhere to see how many natives and regular one has? Besides i would agree, as i can easily have an extra 30-40 divs now from the colonies in indochina and africa. I dont even want to think if i would convert some "extra", they could supply hundreds of divs.Evil Grin

Нама Добро а Никоме Зло - Kraljevo
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Friday, March 23, 2007 3:24:51 PM
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By regular you mean in my case Japanese, no? Who the hell would use irregulars, anyway Wink
But yes, i too find it kinda exploity, but i think my army right now is even or at least almost.
But thanks to your replies, in my SP games i had really large armies (about) with mostly korean or manchu soldiers. I even had 2 entire russian divisions yay

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Anders
Posted: Friday, March 23, 2007 4:24:00 PM
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I don't think it's exploiting to let your colonials do the dying for the mother country. It is, after all, the price they pay for Civilization.
And of course the Homeland has to pay for the equipment and upkeep. But that's just the White Man's Burden...

The Real White Man’s Burden:

Take up the White Man’s burden.

Send forth your sturdy kin,

And load them down with Bibles

And cannon-balls and gin.

Throw in a few diseases

To spread the tropic climes,

For there the healthy niggers

Are quite behind the times.

And don’t forget the factories.

On those benighted shores

They have no cheerful iron mills,

Nor eke department stores.

They never work twelve hours a day

And live in strange content,

Altho they never have to pay

A single sou of rent.

Take up the White Man’s burden,

And teach the Philippines

What interest and taxes are

And what a mortgage means.

Give them electrocution chairs,

And prisons, too, galore,

And if they seem inclined to kick,

Then spill their heathen gore.

They need our labor question, too,

And politics and fraud—

We’ve made a pretty mess at home,

Let’s make a mess abroad.

And let us ever humbly pray

The Lord of Hosts may deign

To stir our feeble memories

Lest we forget—the Maine.

Take up the White’s Man’s burden.

To you who thus succeed

In civilizing savage hordes,

They owe a debt, indeed;

Concessions, pensions, salaries,

And privilege and right—

With outstretched hands you raised to bless

Grab everything in sight.

Take up the White Man’s burden

And if you write in verse,

Flatter your nation’s vices

And strive to make them worse.

Then learn that if with pious words

You ornament each phrase,

In a world of canting hypocrites

This kind of business pays.


-Ernest Crosby

"Hvor fattige var de ikke, disse fiskere som levde av havets nåde! De slet sig gjennom livet uten å se sig om til høire eller til venstre. Deres gleder var få, deres bekymringer mange. Men de hadde allikevel et gemyttlig smil til den fremmede, en munter vise og en lun historie. For sånn er de, disse Sørlandets barn."

King of Men wrote:
Anders is correct.

Fivoin wrote:
Yeah, Anders is right.

baronbowden wrote:
I would tend to agree with Anders.

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M&M
Posted: Friday, March 23, 2007 7:22:20 PM
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anyone remember my industrial score ? 20 years is quite a long time, its even longer then the total game years I've played Rolleyes . I hope the AI didn't ruin sweden/scandanavia for me, prussia was only under AI for a few months and Mr.G was complaining. I wonder what 20 years would do. Also, have we agreed on finland's fate ?
Hytzon
Posted: Friday, March 23, 2007 8:08:07 PM
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M&M wrote:
anyone remember my industrial score ? 20 years is quite a long time, its even longer then the total game years I've played Rolleyes . I hope the AI didn't ruin sweden/scandanavia for me, prussia was only under AI for a few months and Mr.G was complaining. I wonder what 20 years would do. Also, have we agreed on finland's fate ?


I dont remember it, but I believe you dropped in 1856 or something which means 9 years Wink Btw. Anders if we don't limit colonial forces, it will become a crazy game. If for example Schuer captures a couple of chinese provinces with soldier POPs, he can have an army bigger than the rest of us combined. In HoI2 this is handled by only getting 0.15 manpower from non-cores.

You can't say civilization don't advance - for in every war, they kill you in a new way.
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Saturday, March 24, 2007 10:10:56 AM
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M&M wrote:
anyone remember my industrial score ? 20 years is quite a long time, its even longer then the total game years I've played Rolleyes . I hope the AI didn't ruin sweden/scandanavia for me, prussia was only under AI for a few months and Mr.G was complaining. I wonder what 20 years would do. Also, have we agreed on finland's fate ?


you got an industrial score of 500 or so? I know that i beat you by the end of the session by 100 points easily. IIRC. For compensation he should be rewarded with finland, i think. We were so egocentric to play on, i believe he deserves some compensation.

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
Hytzon
Posted: Saturday, March 24, 2007 2:03:33 PM
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Gen.Schuermann wrote:


you got an industrial score of 500 or so? I know that i beat you by the end of the session by 100 points easily. IIRC. For compensation he should be rewarded with finland, i think. We were so egocentric to play on, i believe he deserves some compensation.


Yeah it seems fair. If Anders can load up as Russia/Britain and give the land to Sweden it would be fine by me. I don't think they should be cores, as they wouldn't have been in any case.

You can't say civilization don't advance - for in every war, they kill you in a new way.
Gen.Schuermann
Posted: Saturday, March 24, 2007 3:02:14 PM
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Just being interested, what do cores mean in Vicky? Do they limit factory production or any such thing?

In Soviet Russia, Schuermann defeats YOU!
M&M
Posted: Saturday, March 24, 2007 3:40:12 PM
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Quote:
you got an industrial score of 500 or so? I know that i beat you by the end of the session by 100 points easily. IIRC. For compensation he should be rewarded with finland, i think. We were so egocentric to play on, i believe he deserves some compensation.

Thats just great Cry , my carefully planned economical boom seems to have gone offtrack. Hopefully I could fix it and jump back into the game, finland should help somewhat as well. I hope my goverment hasn't been trashed as well, in an SP test run I did a couple of weeks ago prussia got reverted back to constitutional goverment instead of its liberal goverment, that would probably affect capitalists. I'm also worried about my resources stockpiles, the AI usually sells them.

Quote:
Just being interested, what do cores mean in Vicky? Do they limit factory production or any such thing?

They have no economical effects, their only effect is I get them for 0 badboy in a war. Since they were also not cores of russia the AI would've been more willing to let go of them since they were my cores at the time. Normally getting a province from a civilised nation nets you 2BB. Meaning all other AI nations would be more willing to DoW you. However, having non national culture pops work in your factories halves their efficiency, but finnish is a swedish/scandanavian national culture so I gain full benefit. Which was my pretext for the war in the first place.

edit:
can someone post the save?

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